Entrepreneurship is a spiritual journey, with Debra Boulanger

Debra Boulanger 0:02

The only way to succeed and to grow, and the only way that entrepreneurship does become this fulfilling spiritual journey is if you're willing to take bold action. Everything that you want is on the other side of fear. Fear is an indication that you're growing.

Leah Neaderthal 0:23

Welcome to the smart gets paid podcast with me. Leah Neaderthal, I help women land higher paying clients in their independent consulting businesses, but I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's. So I taught myself how to do it, and I created the sales approach that I now share with my clients so they can feel more comfortable in the sales process. Get more of the right clients and get paid way more for every client contract. So whether your client contracts are $5,000 $100,000 or more, if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love, and get paid more than you ever thought you could, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to rate, review and share. Hey there, Leah here, and thanks for tuning in. I hope wherever you are right now, wherever you're listening to this, I hope you're having a great week, making some good progress in your business and taking some time for you. So growing up, I was, I guess, book smart, right? I worked hard in school. I got good grades. I went to college, you know, got a good job, like I always considered myself smart, but when I started my consulting business, many years later, I discovered that I didn't have a, like, a quality that I really needed. I didn't have grit. I mean, yeah, in school, I worked hard and I studied right. But I was also allowed to, like, quit a lot of things. I quit piano, I quit clarinet, like, if I wasn't immediately good at something, I would just kind of quit. And then eventually, what that kind of morphed into was that if I thought I wasn't going to be good at something, I wouldn't even try it. And so in my 30s, when I started my business, I realized, like, yeah, I guess I was smart, but I didn't have this, like, specific quality that I needed to run a business. I read Angela duckworth's book grit, and that's when I realized, like, as I'm reading this book, I'm like, Oh, I don't think I have this. And so I had to develop it. And I just want to point out that word develop, right? You don't learn grit, or read a book about grit, or take a course about grit, you have to just develop it like you have to teach yourself how to persevere. You know how to sit through discomfort, and that's actually why I decided to train for a triathlon many years ago. Like to purposely put myself in a position where I'd be uncomfortable, and I'd have to keep going, and I had to get comfortable, you know, sticking with something even when it's really hard, like, even when you know you're not going to be good at it. Like, I literally had to start to understand for the first time, I think at that point, that I had to be bad at something before I was going to be good at it, and that that's okay. And I say that this is like a quality, you know, I guess, like a personality trait, but it's really more than that. It's kind of a way of being like I had to develop a whole new way of being and approaching everything, and it's still evolving. But that new way of being has really served me over the, you know, 10 plus years of my business, because I gotta tell you, there have been some really challenging times, and I've stuck with it, like I've showed up for this business every day, but developing grit this, like new way of being, it changes you. I mean, you could say it changes your spirit. And I was thinking about that in the run up to talking with today's guests, because one of the things that she talks about is that entrepreneurship is a spiritual journey, and it doesn't mean spirituality like, you know, finding a religion. It doesn't mean going on Zen retreats, unless you want to do that, and if you do, please bring me with you. But it's about what entrepreneurship does to you as a person, and it sort of changes your spirit. It requires you to change your spirit, kind of like how I had to go from somebody who quit things to someone who had grit, and that's what we're talking about today with my guest, Deborah Boulanger. Debra is the founder of life after corporate and she had an incredible corporate career. She grew a division from zero to $32, million in 30 months at Gartner, and then she walked away from it, all of it, and that was 13 years ago. Now, Deb works with smart, accomplished women leaders who leave corporate to start coaching or consulting practices, and she helps them monetize their expertise and build businesses that work. And I have to say, Deb is a kindred spirit. It in this business, she's no nonsense. We both sort of look at the business guru, business influencer world, you know, all the fluff and not much substance, and we both just sort of shake our heads, you know, I mean, Deb is the real deal. And in this conversation, we're talking about something that I don't think gets talked about enough, which is that entrepreneurship isn't just about learning tactics or strategies. It requires real inner transformation. There are things you have to learn, but there are also things you have to unlearn, and we're going to talk about what it truly takes versus what we've been told. So in this episode, you'll hear what led Deb to walk away from her corporate success and what she discovered on the other side, you'll learn about the identity shift that happens when you go from employee to business owner, and why it's so much more than a career change. You'll hear about what you might need to unlearn from your corporate days if you want to succeed, and you'll learn why Deb believes that entrepreneurship is fundamentally a spiritual journey, and what that actually means for building a sustainable business. So take a listen to my conversation with Deborah Boulanger, and at the end, I'll come back and share a lesson that you can apply to your business. Deb thanks so much for being here.

Debra Boulanger 6:12

I am so excited to be on your show. Leah, I respect you. Love the show and so excited to be included.

Leah Neaderthal 6:19

Yeah, I always love talking to you and hearing your perspective. And there's a lot we see very eye to eye on. And so it's so nice talking to a fellow practitioner and leader in this space. So I'm really excited to get into it. Deb, why don't you tell the good folks who you are and what you do?

Debra Boulanger 6:36

Yeah. So I am the founder of life after corporate, and I work with smart and accomplished women leaders in corporate who have made the bold move and bold decision to start a coaching or consulting practice, and they want to monetize their expertise and earn their wealth their way. And it's a great, great, fulfilling journey to be able to help people to do that.

Leah Neaderthal 7:00

Yeah, isn't it so fun working with, like, smart, just ambitious, accomplished women? I feel like we have the best job in the world.

Debra Boulanger 7:09

It is the best job in the world by far. And it feels like I'm making a difference, and I'm making a difference in helping women embrace their self worth. And I think, you know, in the age that we're living in right now where women are still struggling for recognition and for that seat at the table, and we're also overcoming this unconscious bias of unworthiness that society and culture has embedded that women are worth less, and so I think that's the most rewarding part of the journey is is helping women embrace their self worth and get paid well for it, right, right?

Leah Neaderthal 7:50

And how long has your own after corporate journey been?

Debra Boulanger 7:55

So I loved corporate 13 years ago,

Leah Neaderthal 7:58

13 years and I was reading that you had an incredible career, like corporate career, while you were in corporate I mean, you grew a division from zero to $32 million in 30 months at Gartner, and then you left to start your own sort of great do over at that time. I mean, we can look back now and be like it was the right move, but what at that time made you walk away from that kind of corporate success.

Debra Boulanger 8:24

I think I had achieved everything I wanted to achieve in corporate so there was nowhere left to go except the C suite. And I didn't want the C suite, didn't want that pressure, didn't want that position. And at the same time, like many women in midlife, I was dealing with an aging parent. My mother had dementia. I also found myself in the middle of a divorce, and I was about to be a single mom, and so the schedule that I had maintained in that corporate career of, you know, traveling one week out of every three and being in Stamford, Connecticut, instead of out on Long Island with my son two nights a week. All of that had to shift, and there was nothing I was interested in. There was just no other job that I wanted, and I didn't want the job I had any longer either. So I hit the meditation cushion, went on a two week silent meditation retreat. Actually did that for multiple years in a row, and I think it was on retreat number two, where I was really seeking, what is it that I'm here to do? I was really looking for my purpose. And I found myself in the middle of a vision where I was coaching, I was blogging, I was helping other people, other women, reinvent themselves in midlife. So this was before I decided to take my corporate expertise as a business leader and combine it with life reinvention coaching. And I was just focused on the life reinvention but I figured, well, I asked, I got an answer. So who am I to question that that's not my path. So two weeks later, I walked. Into the Senior VP of HR, and I said, I think I'm complete. And she said, Do you want a package? I said, Yes, and the rest is history.

Leah Neaderthal 10:08

I don't know what's better in that story, the severance package, or that you went on a two week Silent Retreat, which, I mean, we've talked I have two small children. That alone sounds incredible, but I I think it's really important about that story. I mean, there's so much we could sort of talk about just in that journey. But what really sort of stands out to me is that there was no journey forward for you inside corporate, right? Like, I think we work so hard to, like, get to a place, but you know, at some point you look around and you're like, I don't like where I am and I don't like where I could be going. I don't think whoever offers that much when you get to a certain level, what do you think

Debra Boulanger 10:46

about that? No, they don't. You know, first of all, getting a seat at the table and being the only woman at the table was an accomplishment in and of itself, and I wish more women were sitting around that table too. But as I started to look for even lateral moves inside the company, all the sexy jobs were going to younger men, you know, the tech intensive, new technology, you know, real innovation type offerings, and I was in product development, and that's what I loved, was real innovation and bringing something to market that didn't exist before. And I feel like I had also aged out at a certain point as well. I was in my mid 50s, and I was aware of that. I was aware that my age was a factor. And so I also use that to my negotiation leverage on the way out.

Leah Neaderthal 11:37

Yes, use all of it, you know, having the wherewithal to sort of see the full picture, and being able to tap into what you really wanted, so that you were able to sort of make this leap. Was it an easy shift? Was it fraught? How did it go, you know, specifically in those like early months and years?

Debra Boulanger 11:57

Yeah, so I think I was a little bit naive. I think only because I had been in sales, marketing and product development. I thought, Oh, I've got this nailed. I know how to do this. I launched services for a living, so now I'll just launch myself and going from B to B to B to C. You know, selling to individuals was a shift. And also this digital marketing, the digital economy, you know the technology and the strategy, well, how do I get in front of the right people? How do I get good at sales conversations? It had been decades since I'd actually been in in direct sales, so that was all new to me, and that was where I dove in, and trusted colleagues and friends who I had known that made the leap before immediately joined a year long program so I could get educated on the technology, how to get good at sales with B to C conversations, how to launch and grow group programs. All of those things were things I didn't know how to do.

Leah Neaderthal 12:57

Yeah, me either. I came from marketing as well. I've been running my business 10 years. You've been running your business 13 years. I don't think people on the outside understand the full, like, scope of what it means to market a scalable business like this, you know, like, it's a totally different kind of marketing. I had to learn it as well, you know, because I did, like corporate brand marketing and like, oh, great, I can do a full campaign. A full campaign. It's not the same thing as, like, how many emails do you send and how do you run? Like, when I used to do webinar funnels and stuff like that, and nobody gets it when you tell them, people are like, Oh yeah, I come from marketing. I can do that. It's like, no, no, no, no. You don't know. I mean, was that your experience as well. It's like,

Debra Boulanger 13:42

yeah, you're the face of the brand. It's you. It's not like and so I don't know about you, but I was mostly an introvert. So actually, you know, learning how to speak and run webinars, webinars was the number one thing that I learned how to do, and I overcame my fear and my resistance to being visible in that way, and now I love them. Speaking from stages is the primary way I've grown my business from the very beginning. But I think also being of a generation that didn't grow up with cell phones and selfies and all the video things, and also being somewhat shy and introverted. There were a lot of personality characteristics that I had to work through. You know, I had to work through some fear and some discomfort to get on the other side of that. Because when you are a solopreneur or running a smaller business and you are the face of the brand. People buy your services because they're buying your expertise. There's no escaping that,

Leah Neaderthal 14:47

and there's no hiding. You know you've said that leaving corporate isn't just a new chapter, it's a total ego reset. And I'm sure that's what you've seen personally, and you see it with. The women you work with, what does that mean to you? A total ego reset, and what does it mean to reset?

Debra Boulanger 15:07

Yeah, it's an identity shift, right? It's an identity shift. So if we think about all of the things that reward our identity, right? So I went from education to corporate, so I was a teacher, and then suddenly I'm a corporate citizen, and you get rewarded for achieving your goals, for being under budget, for speaking up, but not too loudly. You know, there's all these things that shape us in corporate understanding what your KPIs are. So once I got into a senior leadership type of role, it was, well, yes, you meet your goals. Your division is the fastest growing division in the company, and you're either too hard on your people, or you're too soft on your people, or, you know, your growth rate is great, your retention rate is not so much. And as women in particular, there's such a they call it the Goldilocks syndrome in corporate I don't know if you've ever heard about that. You know it's like you can't be too much, you can't be too little. There's such a fine definition of success that we're operating within that becomes unconscious because we buy in to the corporate culture, to the corporate rules of success. And for women who succeed, we succeed by playing the game. And way back when, that also meant that, you know, I wore a suit every day. It was mostly monochromatic. I didn't want to stand out, I didn't want to draw attention to myself. I wanted to fit in. But entrepreneurship is the opposite. You succeed by standing out, by being different, by being louder, not loud, but expressing your opinions so that you can be heard, so that you can own your category. You can be known for something, but also the rewards are different. So you lose the paycheck. Now, the paycheck is a huge part of our identity in corporate because it was equated to our success. If we're successful, we're earning more year after year, we're getting a bigger bonus. All of those things you go up the corporate ladder, you get your stock options, all of the things, and once you leave all of that behind, that financial reward is now something that you need to create on your own. So our sense of value, our sense of self worth, and I'm sure you see this all the time too, what am I worth? How do I price my services. You know, all of that doubt and overwhelm and questioning and overthinking kind of starts to take over. So the identity is different, the reward systems are different, and you're creating something from a place where you've never been before. So it feels uncertain and it's scary.

Leah Neaderthal 18:03

If you don't know what the rules are and what game you're playing, you don't know if you're winning and if you're doing well, you know, other than money, it's the most visible metric. And I think back to what we're saying about these like, you know, are the smart women, high achievers, et cetera, high achievers. In my experience, it's like the more you feel like you're succeeding, the more you succeed. Do you know what I'm saying? Like a players do not like to feel like B players. A players want to keep feeling like a players. And if you're if there's nobody telling you you're an A player or the game doesn't reinforce that you're an A player, it's easy to sort of feel like a B player and sort of slide back, even though you're not doing anything wrong, you just haven't learned the game yet. Or, you know, the rules have not been explained to you.

Debra Boulanger 18:47

Yes. And so there tends to be over inflated goals and ideals. You know, I once had a conversation with a prospect. I said, What's your revenue goal? And she said, 400,000 and I said, this is your first year in business. And she said, Yes. And I said, Pardon me, but there's no way on God's green earth that you are going to hit 400k unless you have four potential clients in the wings that are each worth six figures. You know, if you got that, then there's a chance that it could happen. So we leave also with these inflated ideals that we can replace a substantial corporate salary on our first year in business. And then when we don't, we feel like there's something wrong, there's something wrong with me, or I'm not good enough, and then there's this fear of not wanting to lose the money that we have so many women end up going back to corporate when it's not about how much money do I have left to survive with. It's what would be my return on advantage, or my return on investment, if I were actually to take a bet on myself and actually invest in my business success, and I. Think the fear of investing in their own success has been the number one detriment to women growing their businesses this year.

Leah Neaderthal 20:06

Oh yeah, why do you think this year over other times?

Debra Boulanger 20:11

I think there's just more fear. I think there's there's more fear out in the world, you know, with the situation that we're in right now, I think people feel financial uncertainty, even when the markets are doing well. So there's just been a lot of fear out there. And in 2020 we were in covid, people were not spending money on vacations, they weren't investing in other things. So they tended to invest in their own education, their own training. And it was an easier decision then. So I think people are just fearful right now and holding on to cash more tightly.

Leah Neaderthal 20:46

Yeah, yeah. Also, you know, I think you're onto something with this inflated expectations. And I think part of that, you know, they're trying to replicate their salary. I think that there's in this shift from, like corporate to running your own business. I mean, in corporate, when you get a new job, you're or even when you're in the business, you're in something that's already been built around you, and you just step into it. With starting a business, you're building something new, and you can't expect, you know, the money in that first building phase that you also saw in the established phase. Do you know what I mean? I think people forget that it does take time. But I have to also call out something that you and I have talked about, which is, I think part of the inflated expectations comes from some actors in our industry who tell people and, you know, set these unrealistic expectations. You can make a million dollars by doing this one little thing you can, you know, fill in the blank. It's like the word salad of promises and goals. And I think for you and I, who are like in the trenches, we have to be the bearer of bad news that, like, there is no passive income. It doesn't work like that, you know, that sort of thing. But you know, I think that part of it is like, can we blame people for the messages that some people are putting out? Do you know what I'm saying for, like, for believing the messages? Yeah.

Debra Boulanger 22:12

I mean, that's true. I mean, we are in a situation right now where trust is an all time low and skepticism is in an all time high, because there have been people who have learned a skill or learned a marketing tactic and it worked for them, and then they decide that they can teach that same tactic to other people without having a holistic sense of the business the business model. Is there demand? Is the offering a good idea. Is it positioned to the right people? Is it messaged correctly? And I think when you have business coaches who have longevity in the market, like you and I have, you know, 1013, years, it's because there's just a really great, solid business foundation that underlines what we do. It's not trendy. It doesn't change with AI. It doesn't change with changing market dynamics. It's the skills that we learned in corporate on how to build businesses are the same skills that entrepreneurs need to build businesses today, and it's not dependent on Tiktok or Instagram or some marketing tactic, or AI, for that matter, that's, you know, making promises. People are making promises that you can launch your course overnight with AI, yes, but does anyone want to buy it? I've seen that people go down that path and and they build the thing, they they launch the course, and no one wants to buy it. And it's because, you know, we've lost the sense of, what's the gap in the market, what is the thing that people want now? What is that undeniable offer that you can bring to market that will be met with immediate demand? Right?

Leah Neaderthal 23:56

You're so right? Well. And that leads to, we talked about this identity shift, going from corporate to running your own business. But there are so many skills that you develop in corporate that are absolutely critical and valuable. Here. You have a way of thinking about that. Can you speak to that?

Debra Boulanger 24:13

Yeah, absolutely. Number one is you know, your strategic perspective, your ability to understand goals and manage time and prioritize things on your calendar, all of those things having business conversations. So if you were in a line of business before and dealt directly with clients and customers, the understanding of frameworks and methodologies and tools, all of those are things that we bring to the table as consultants and coaches in the marketplace. So that is the good foundation that corporate women bring to entrepreneurship. Yeah, yeah.

Leah Neaderthal 24:54

You'll hear more insights from my conversation with Deborah Boulanger right after this. Leah. You and I have talked about there's also a lot that women have to unlearn when they go from corporate to running their business. I mean, what are the some of the things that you see that women need to unlearn as they step into entrepreneurship?

Debra Boulanger 25:12

Yeah, that it's not about being safe, right? So in corporate, we're used to avoiding risk. You know, what's the risk of this situation? How can we minimize risk? And really, in entrepreneurship, we're maximizing risk, right? The more risk, the more reward. So it's a different way of looking at things. It's also, instead of, you know, how much can we save and be under budget when you first start out, you've got to over invest in your own success. Over invest in your own education, in technology and support, and really build the infrastructure of a business that is scalable from the start. And if you don't invest and you're kind of scrimping and saving and holding on to your pennies, you know that only lasts so long before you're going to find yourself in a situation where you're going to have to decide whether or not you're going to go back to corporate. And I think that's what we're seeing. I think we're in the early stages of the big shakeout where Consulting has increased, I think about 30% or so over the last few years, coaching 60% over the last few years. And so if the market feels crowded, if you feel like there's a lot of people saying the same things you're saying and offering the same services you're offering, it is true. And so that's why carving out this differentiated value proposition. And my clients and I were working on the Dan Sullivan book, 10x is easier than 2x over our and so the concept of your unique ability, and I like mashing them up together to unique ability, right? So that thing that only you can own, and when you talk about what do you have to leave behind, incorporate, it's that fitting in, and you really need to lean into what is unique about me, and that gets personal. So I believe entrepreneurship is a spiritual journey, and that's unique to me, because that was the path that I took, that it was really a path of going inward and trusting my own intuition, trusting a higher power, trusting that when I got quiet, the answers started to get louder, and that's when I really started to rely on my internal guidance system. So whatever you want to call it the universe, God, higher power source, I always say one source, many channels, whatever channel you tune into is great for you, but I don't know a whole lot of entrepreneurs that actually succeed without tapping into some deeper resource inside of themselves.

Leah Neaderthal 27:57

I love that idea of entrepreneurship being a spiritual journey for so many reasons, and there are so many ways we can sort of turn that prism. What it says to me is you have to not only tap into like an internal, inner voice, inner wisdom, it also means you have to be in it for something more than money. Yes, because if you're in it for just the money. I mean, I'm sure either of us would sit down with you and tell you, it takes longer than you think. And yes, there are incredible rewards, but you get paid. You know, I'm using air quotes, paid in so much more than money, and so you have to be in it for so much more than money. You have to be in it for the impact that you have, or time with your family, the ability to take care of your aging parents, you know, whatever it is, and see the whole picture. And you have to know what's important,

Debra Boulanger 28:46

yeah, you have to rewrite what abundance means to you.

Leah Neaderthal 28:50

Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it. And I love what you're talking about around what makes me different, and it is hard for women to tap into that. I see this play out on a tactical level. You know, one of the things we do is it's part of our system. We have you rewrite your LinkedIn profile according to our framework. And there's a section in it that says, what makes me different? And oftentimes I read these, and the first draft of that says something like, you know, I take a strategic approach to, you know, the work, and I bring best practices, and I can think big, and I can also do the details or whatever. And a lot of times the feedback I give is like, you've actually just described the job, you haven't described what makes you different. And so, you know, I sort of send them back for version two, and like, really sit with that. You know, what makes you different? And that's hard, because nobody's ever asked us that before, right?

Debra Boulanger 29:43

And also, what makes you different is not just what you did in corporate, it's the entire lifetime of experience. I mean, I've had women in the launch lab, and there was one client in particular who is a finance expert and a fractional CFO. Ago, and a lot of the language around money and finances can be really negative, you know, avoiding risk and not overspending. And da, da. But then we found out halfway through the launch lab that she was a dancer on Broadway. We're like, what, what? You know, you you were in these productions on Broadway, like, where is that in your value proposition? And sure enough, the whole choreography of working with numbers and dancing with numbers actually became part of her foundational messaging. And so I think that's another thing, is that we take such a limited view of our professional career that it was only that time in corporate. But what makes you unique, and we said this on retreat a couple weeks ago, is that no one has your DNA like we are all absolute, unique individuals on this planet. And your psychology, your emotional makeup, how you think, what you think about, what your interests are, all of that brings into your personality and to the flavor of consulting that you bring to your clients. And so my focus on entrepreneurship being a spiritual journey is is really coming out of the closet more and more as I bring meditation in and all these other spiritual tools into the work that we do together,

Leah Neaderthal 31:27

it's so important when you become an entrepreneur, the whole person of you becomes an entrepreneur. So you have to bring the whole person with you,

Debra Boulanger 31:35

and it's shedding layers. It's like peeling back the onion. I always say that, you know, as you go on this entrepreneurial journey, it like cracks your heart open an inch at a time, and some of us have issues receiving. We're great at giving. We're caregivers. Women in general are more taking care of the family, taking care of other things in our lives, but we might not be great receivers, and so you need to learn how to become a great receiver, in order to receive positive feedback and input, in order to receive money, in order to feel worthy enough to charge appropriately for the transformation that you're delivering. And so that's just one example of how we're just peeling back the layers and really getting to the core of who we are, right?

Leah Neaderthal 32:23

And those are spiritual questions. There's no equation for that. No, you talk a lot about closing the revenue gap as sort of your your bigger mission. What does closing the revenue gap mean for you?

Debra Boulanger 32:37

Yeah, so when I grew up in corporate, you know, women were underpaid, right? So it was 79 cents to the dollar, 80 cents to the dollar, compared to our male counterparts in entrepreneurship, it's 30 cents to the dollar.

Leah Neaderthal 32:50

You're kidding? I've never heard that. Yes,

Debra Boulanger 32:54

wow. I think that was from the 2021, maybe, state of women owned business report. I'll get the citation for you. But 30 cents to the dollar, only 22% of women entrepreneurs break through six figures. Yeah. So 88% Yeah, you've heard the 88% earn less than 100k the average compensation for a coach is 52,800 it's just, it's important. And part of that, I think a good part of that is the issue around self worthiness, and, of course, pricing and charging appropriately, and then also getting confident and skilled in the sales conversation, yes,

Leah Neaderthal 33:37

which is, you know, my Of course, bread and butter, right? But I think that statistic is so interesting for a number of reasons, but I also think it really speaks to why we do what we do, and why we create the communities that we do. Because I feel like a lot of women are out there. They've started this journey they know, like one other women business owner, you know, one to three other women business owners, and they're asking them for advice, and, you know, taking their guidance or whatever. And I said this recently on a podcast episode, it's like, if you have bigger dreams, right? You want to be over six figures, you want to be in the, you know, four or 500 whatever works for you and your vision of life. And you have, like, three other women business owners, right? Who you're asking for help on stuff. Statistically speaking, they will not be where you want to go. Do you know what I'm saying? Like there's an 88% chance they will not have reached that mark, because 88% of women will never crack six figures, right? And so statistically speaking, you will be taking guidance, directions from someone who's never been there. And I don't want to sort of belittle the communities that we have and your sort of local network and friends and all of that stuff, but like, if you want to get to a place, you need to learn from people who've been to that place and are there right now, and you need to be with other people who are going. To that place?

Debra Boulanger 35:01

Yeah, the number one piece of feedback I get from my clients is how well curated the room is, with the smart, accomplished women leaders and people who have been there and absolutely 100% you don't want to take advice. In fact, I did something a little bit sneaky last year. I kept hearing I can't invest in another business coach, because I've invested so much, I have nothing to show for it. I was like, I want to interview these business coaches. I want to see who they are. And it was shocking and appalling. What I learned were, you know, people who were just doing one tiny piece of marketing and calling themselves a business coach, or people who had taken one course, and they're regurgitating what they learned in that one course and calling themselves a business coach. So for you and I, Leah, I kind of want a new label.

Leah Neaderthal 35:49

Can we make out a new label been waiting?

Debra Boulanger 35:51

Yeah, let's, let's make up a new category, because you really need to get some trusted expertise, you know, with people who have also built things in corporate too. So do your due diligence. And I think people are doing better due diligence these days. I hope they

Leah Neaderthal 36:06

are, yeah, yeah. It's so funny that you sort of went on that side quest to talk to the business coaches. And I would love to, like, offline here, but I've heard something similar from a lot of women. It's like, I can't invest in another thing, or I had a business coach and it didn't work, or whatever it was, right? And this year, I did something we've never done, and I probably a couple years ago, would never think to do, I offered to buy you out. It's like, if you're in a program that doesn't work to get B to B clients, because you know everybody, you know everybody out there is like, I'll help you get sales. I'll help you, help you to get clients. And it's like one little copywriting technique or something. So I was like, if you have found yourself in a program that does not work to get you B to B clients, or is not set up to do that, let me know, and I will buy you out, because nobody should suffer because they've been duped as a strong word, but because they have been led to believe that the technique that, oh, this will help you get clients, they find out that it doesn't. It does, but, but, yeah, it was a, I don't know, a bold move, and it didn't work, right? It worked to sort of rescue some people who found themselves in that situation. But, yeah, there's a real lack of trust in that space, yeah,

Debra Boulanger 37:21

and that's why I think, you know, I also talk about visibility as currency. It's so important that whatever form of visibility you choose, you know, I happen to like long form writing. I don't love video quite as much. I love live sessions, live presentations. I love this. I love podcasting. I love doing webinars and workshops, but picking up a phone and recording a reel is not my happy place. But I will write long form content all day, every day, and, you know, break down the equations for you. So I think you've yet to do you, and maybe I'm also hiding back a little bit more than I need to do. So in full disclosure, I probably do need to do more reels, more videos,

Leah Neaderthal 38:06

you and me both. There's a reason I have a podcast, not a YouTube. I love the audio. So in your own life after corporate, what do you love the most these days?

Debra Boulanger 38:18

I love intimacy. I love small rooms. I love my life. I love being able to work from home. I love intimate relationships with clients. I just love small rooms. And I think that's also what's missing, is when people sign up for some of these really large programs and you find yourself in a Zoom Room that has four pages and you're just a number and don't get any support. But I really love my life. I mean, I love living on eastern Long Island, which is a trek to go almost anywhere. Love Love being by the water. Love being with my partner, my dog. I love being able to travel anytime I want to, yeah, that's, those are the rewards. That's the abundance. You know, abundance comes in many forms.

Leah Neaderthal 39:06

Yeah, that's a really nice after. What last advice could you share with folks that you know isn't related to sales and marketing, which I know people can receive in abundance from all the good content you're putting out. But what do you want to leave people

Debra Boulanger 39:19

with that everything that you want is on the other side of fear, and that the only way to succeed and to grow, and the only way that entrepreneurship does become this fulfilling spiritual journey is if you're willing to take bold action. And fear doesn't go away. It's not like you eradicate fear and you suddenly become fearless. Fear is an indication that you're growing and continuing to move past that discomfort and doing something that feels uncomfortable. It's like Brene Brown talks about those FFTs. This is an old story, because they're. Podcast has been around for a long time, and I think this was her very first episode. It's those effing first times that cause so much discomfort. And if you're willing to go past those FFTs, one after another after another, that's the journey of growth, and that's the journey of success.

Leah Neaderthal 40:18

That's beautiful. Deb, where can people find you?

Debra Boulanger 40:21

Life after corporate.com as all the things and the life after corporate podcast, we also have a life after corporate community. So if you just search life after corporate you're destined to find me and on LinkedIn, we'd love to connect to anyone who has listened to the episode and wants to reach out, just send me a DM on LinkedIn. It's Deb.

Leah Neaderthal 40:43

Boulanger, wonderful. Deb, thank you so much for being here. It's really been a pleasure.

Debra Boulanger 40:49

It's always a pleasure hanging out with you. Leah, thank you

Leah Neaderthal 40:54

all right. What a great conversation, right? And if something Deb said spoke to you or gave you an aha moment. I hope you'll share this episode on LinkedIn and tag both Deb and me. So I always like to pull out a lesson that you can apply to your business, and there are so many here, but I want to focus on one thing that Deb said that I think is really important, and it's this idea of visibility as currency. Because Deb is totally right. When you're running a business, visibility isn't optional. You know, people ask me all the time, like, how do I get clients outside my network? And the answer is, visibility. Clients have to see you, to know about you, to be able to learn about you, and then to want to work with you. And of course, you know, saying it out loud right now, it sounds like so obvious, right? But it's something that so many women resist to some degree, this idea of being visible. And I know it's a hard switch, you know, coming from corporate, because when you spend all those years working for someone else, and especially early in our careers, like we're very much working in the background, you know, behind the scenes, making other people look good, whether it's your boss or the company or the CEO or your client. Like for a lot of us, we never would have thought to put ourselves front and center. And for some of us, there might have even been rules about how you could be visible, or, you know, how we were supposed to not be visible, and what you could or couldn't say online, right? And so after all that time, that's where we become comfortable, or at least just used to being, you know, doing great work, letting other people take the spotlight. And that was actually me, too. I mean, I was a lot more comfortable just sort of being in the background, letting other people take the spotlight. When I had a business partner, I let her be completely front and center. I mean, I was so in the background. But when I went out on my own, like all on my own, I realized that I just couldn't be in the background anymore, like when you're the business owner, and you stay in the background, then your business is effectively invisible. And, you know, obviously no one can find you if you are effectively hidden. So I learned how to get visible in a way that worked for me. You know, I love writing, and I learned how to do LinkedIn, and I have this podcast, and I might never love being so visible, like at my heart, I might always just be a person who loves being in the background, doing the work, but I also know I can't run a business without it. And so to get clients and get clients outside your network, you have to be visible. And the good news is that you don't have to do everything like you don't have to be on every platform. You don't have to do, you know, reels, if you hate them. Deb mentioned that she loves long form writing and live presentations. I love writing as well, and I have this podcast, although I have to say the podcast alone took me over a year to get up the nerve to actually do but regardless, you get to choose, and here's the thing I tell Academy members all the time, the only strategy is consistency. It actually matters less what you do if you do it consistently, like any visibility. Tactic can work if you like writing, or you want to have a YouTube channel or whatever, any tactic can work if you do it consistently, that's more important than the actual, you know, platform you choose. So here's what I want you to do. Think about the places where you wouldn't feel comfortable showing up. You know, maybe that's video, maybe it's Instagram, whatever it is right now, ask yourself, what would you feel comfortable doing? Is it writing? Is it speaking? Is it podcasting? Is it being a guest on other people's shows like pick one, you know, just one and start there. Because here's the reality, you're not in corporate anymore. You don't get to stay in the background and still succeed, but you do get to choose how you show up. All right. So thanks so much for listening, and I'll see you next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai