Standing Up for Yourself

Leah Neaderthal0:02

you're listening to the smart gets paid podcast with me. Leah Neaderthal, I help women land higher paying clients in their B2B consulting and coaching businesses. But I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's. So I taught myself how to do it, and I created a sales approach that feels comfortable, makes you feel confident, and it works consistently. And now I teach women how to land higher paying clients in their B2B consulting and coaching businesses. So whether your client contracts are $2,000 or $200,000 if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love, and get paid more than you ever imagined, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Welcome to Smart gets paid. Hey there. Thanks for tuning in to this episode. I hope that wherever you are, you're having a good week, you are making some good progress on your business, and, you know, also taking some time for yourself. So it's been an exciting few weeks over here because we just started my new program called the Academy, which is a comprehensive program to help you really start to put in place a repeatable system to get new clients into your B to B consulting and coaching business. We welcomed our first group of awesome business owners, and we had what I'm just going to say is a great kickoff. It was so much fun, and I'm just so excited to work with these women in the program. If you missed the window, don't worry, because moving forward, we're going to be enrolling new students on a rolling basis. So if you want to learn more about the academy and see if it's right for you and your business, just go to smart gets paid.com/academy

Leah Neaderthal1:44

and you know, one thing I've noticed in working towards the academy is that I just actually feel different recently, like I feel lighter, because in creating the Academy, I made the decision to retire all my other programs, which I talked about in Episode one called the biggest decision in my business, and even though that was a really hard decision, I knew that it was the right one, because the business I had created didn't solve the problem that I really saw in the world and the one that I wanted to solve, which is that so many women business owners are leaving so much money on the table because they don't know how to get clients into their business, and they don't know how to charge and get paid what they could be. And so I knew that retiring those programs was the right thing from a business perspective, but I didn't realize what creating all of those programs and promoting them and running them and maintaining them was doing to me from a personal perspective, like in my personal life, because Only now do I realize how much that contributed to my burnout over the last year or so. And if you've been listening to the podcast and following me on LinkedIn and on my newsletter, you know that I spoke really honestly and frankly about just how burned out I was. And of course, a lot of that was a pandemic, the uncertainty around everything the election, the events following the election, and my wife and I picked up our life and moved out of Brooklyn for a while. And, you know, we still have a toddler. And so a lot of the burnout, of course, was from that. But looking back now, I see that a huge contributor to that burnout was the way that I had spread myself way too thin in my business, like just trying to do way too much. And when I was talking about all that burnout in my newsletter and LinkedIn posts and whatnot, I talked about this idea of closing tabs in your life. And I did that at the time. You know, I started really saying no to some things I just finished up closed up. Other things like fully finishing them and not keeping them just open and simmering. And by looking at some of the things that were on my eternal to do list, right, and just being like, Nope, it's not going to happen. Put it aside, just close that tab. But at the time, I was really focused on closing tabs, you know, like around my business, because I hadn't yet made the connection to closing tabs inside my business. And, you know, closing up my programs, and how that might actually free up my brain space, but the effect is really the same. And so now that I have just one program to focus on, I feel like I have so much mental space, and I can put all my best thinking and energy and focus into this one program and into helping the women who are in it. And that just feels really, really good. So I want to offer that if you are feeling burned out or overwhelmed, I mean, so many of us are, to some degree and for so many reasons. But if you're feeling that way, I'm going to just continue to champion this idea of closing tabs. But consider not just closing tabs around your business. Maybe look at what tabs need to be closed in your business. And with that, let's get into this week's episode. In this episode, I'm talking to a client of mine. Who in her work, she pairs design thinking with dei work diversity, equity and inclusion work to bring about more equitable companies and products. It's very cool work. And the question we're tackling here is, well, it sort of starts as, hey, we got some pushback about our pricing. What do we do? But as the conversation progresses, and as her conversations with her potential client progress, it really becomes clear that the conversation isn't just about money. It becomes a question of what happens when you get an opportunity to work with a big name client for a lot of money. But it starts to kind of not feel right. And let's be clear, when I say a lot of money, I mean a lot of money, you will hear her mention it. So if you've ever dealt with a client where somewhere along the sales process, things get a little difficult, you might cringe a little bit as you listen to this saga unfold, but you'll also absolutely recognize what my client is going through, and we're actually going to try something new in this episode. So usually, in what my team and I call the listening in episodes, you listen in on a zoom conversation with me and a client of mine, where we work through the challenge that they're facing in getting new clients, but it's like just the one call, right? That lasts, you know, anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour, but in this episode, you're going to hear a conversation that took place over the course of about six weeks through a combination of zoom calls and the voice messaging tool called Voxer. So Voxer is something that my one on one clients and I use to communicate in between our sessions, and it's great because they can pop on and ask me questions whenever, and I can chime in and provide some coaching and guidance from really wherever I am. Because I found that, of course, lessons are great, templates are great, but sometimes it's like the one nugget or the one thing that you might need to hear in the moment that really unlocks something or just kind of gives you need to move forward. And Voxer is a great tool for that. So that's what we use. So like I said, I can chime in when things come up wherever I am, which literally means wherever. And in fact, in one of the clips in this episode, you're going to hear me get back to my client with an answer, and I'm at the playground watching my son and, like, just sort of following him around the playground. So in that clip, you're going to hear some playground noise in the background. So with that context, let's dive in. Remember that this is a client who does equity work, and she's in a sales process with a big name client. And the first clip you're going to hear is our first zoom call. And as always, I want to send a huge thank you to this client for allowing me to share this conversation with you, so take a listen, and at the end, I'm going to come back and share a lesson that you can apply to your business.

Leah Neaderthal7:49

Do you have an actual sales process? I'm talking about not a general sense of what you should be doing, but a real process where you know exactly what step comes next, who to follow up with, and when, and you can see at a glance where every potential client stands, if the answer is no, or if yours feels clunky or you're reinventing the wheel every single time I made something for you, it's called roadmap to clients. It's a free 20 minute video course, and in it you'll map out your customized sales process step by step, from the very first contact with a potential client all the way to a signed proposal. It's the same foundational process we use with every Academy member, and it's completely free. Go to smart gets paid.com/roadmap to get started,

8:35

let's like, I want to get you some quick answers so that you can move forward between now and our next conversation.

8:41

Okay, great. This will be, I guess I have two. One is retrospective, like, damage has been done, if it is damaged, but I still want to think about how to do it differently, which is, we got a contract with and I wrote them a proposal with our project fees, like, I'll outlay all the pieces that's happening, and at the bottom of the bucket, I'll just put a big number. I won't say, like, this workshop so good. It's very Allen Weiss, of you, great. Love it. Glad that stuck. So then we they were like, yes, yes, yes. Love it. Had a couple feedback on the scope, awesome, awesome, awesome. But then we get to signing the contract, they're like, oh, surprise. It has to be hourly or day rates. And I was like, Could we please? Like, I've never priced it that way. That's not how we operate. I explained some of the explanation of, like, we don't do hourly, you know, whatever. But they're like, it's just not going to get approved. Like, that's our process. Here's our template. Everyone uses it. So we got in situations like, okay. So I went back and did the hourly calculations using my projection sheet, which I already had, I don't know. So I gave them the spreadsheet that has the hours tied to the person, etc. But I'm feeling kind of icky about it. But I also feel like, were they thinking that I'm just way overcharging them? I don't know. They definitely were framing it as like, just charge the medium level of intensity of what you think you'll need if we need more. Money will get it. I sort of feel like they're like, we only want to pay you for what you actually work. And it was sort of a didn't really get to have, I didn't have any power. I tried. I was like, No, and I wrote the whole budget being and the person did tell me, I'll try. And then I don't know what happened behind the veil, he talked to XYZ person and but then they brought in a finite person that talked to me was just like, No, not happening. So I don't know how you would think about that. Is that, like, a walk away situation, do I have more power than I thought? And I would just, you know, say we're going to walk away and they have to get right? I'm not sure, but I feel kind of icky about it. I feel like we probably will lose a lot of money.

Leah Neaderthal10:33

Yeah, I mean, you're right to feel icky, and you didn't mention this, but I think it's a little bit implied, like none of that is your fault, right? Like, they, they clearly went down the sales process in a in one way, and then did, like, a hard right turn. So, yeah, no, you're right to feel icky. What I would sort of do. I mean, you've already, you submitted it, right? Like, so

10:54

it's, yeah, but, like, for future reference, yeah, well,

Leah Neaderthal10:58

and also, I mean this, you know you had mentioned that your proportion of clients is changing, and for clients that are bigger and probably have a procurement process or a legal process or whatever, you might come up against this again, because their whole job is to cut costs, right? That's like their their team's job. It's not to say that it you you should do hourly. But, I mean, here's the thing, they're they're sort of guidance on, like, put the medium level of effort, and we'll get that approved, and we'll get more money. I mean, you don't want to have to sell twice, and they don't know how to solve the problem, you know, they brought you in to solve the problem. And so it's kind of the equivalent of, like, I don't know, did you ever work at a company where your boss was like, this is this really shouldn't be that hard. Shouldn't be that hard. And you're like, you don't know what the fuck this. You know you haven't you have no idea how hard this is, right? Don't tell me how hard this is going to be. So, I mean, my total knee jerk reaction is like, make your numbers work for the numbers you want, right here. Listen, here's a good thing. You have gone through a sales process. They want you, you are the preferred provider. They probably don't want to start over true with a new provider. And so you have more leverage than you think nice. You know, they have already sold this in you've already gotten the first Yes, which is the proposal true, and they're not dying to kick you to the curb. You know? I mean, it sounds kind of harsh, but like they're they, they're not dying to start this over. I think a lot of people go into these, this process, not realizing how much power they actually have. I mean, listen, if this is a first call, it might be different, but you've gone down quite a ways. You know, there's this concept of commitment bias. So commitment bias is like, the longer you spend on something, the more likely you are to keep spending more time because something has to work out. It's the reason why people stay at a craft table, you know, just trying to something's got to hit. It works both ways, right? Like you could go down the whole process, and they're like, No, you have to be hourly. And you could think, I've already put so much time into it. I'm going to just start bending over backwards because I put so much time in and I don't want to lose this after all of this. But it also works that on their side too, you know, they have committed right? They have commitment bias for you, so they don't, they don't want to, like, start over either, you know, they don't want to just, like, trash all their hard work. So make the numbers work that you want and and, you know, keep yourself in the position of, you're, you're the boss of your business. All right, that help a little bit. Yes, it

13:42

does exciting.

Leah Neaderthal13:45

All right. So that was the first call, and then the following week, in our next coaching call, I asked her how things were going.

13:52

I do have a question also about the piece, but you let me know if now's the right place, or if I should save it for the end. Yeah, let's, let's,

13:59

I mean, why don't we see if I can get you some quick if I can get you some quick help. And, okay, great.

14:04

This is the one where they were, like, you got to do hourly. I retrofitted it, I made it work. And then they got back to me and they said, Oh, these rates are too high. And in particular, they had a piece of feedback which, like I'll take, which is, we don't see subcontractor rates that are this high. So it was not as much about our rates as staffers, but my subcontractors, I do think, to be fair, that I think I accept from them a higher rate than most folks they work with, so the pass through after taxes and overhead and stuff does get sort of high. But my initial reaction was like, Ah, this is why we don't do hourly. And like they say, I told them on the phone. I was like, listen, it's based on value, so we try to retrofit it to hourly, the numbers are going to seem high. And they were like, Yeah, we totally understand. And then first email I get is, Oh, that's too high. So I'm pretty frustrated at this point. Okay, my knee jerk reaction was like, we're done. Bye. Bye. But maybe you can help me temper it. Like, is that where we're at now, just calling the phone and be like, What the hell? Because they told me the budget was 500,000 so I built a proposal, and he was like, maybe something more in the middle. It's like, okay, so I scoped it down. I was like, This is too expensive. I'm like, why did you start with 500k is the option if this is clearly not what you want to spend anyway? Reactions and thoughts would be helpful.

Leah Neaderthal15:24

Well, you know, hard relate on the like frustration. You know, you told me this was the budget. Turns out it's not the budget, but I scoped the work to the budget, right? Like that seems like either that was an approach that, like a methodology, right, that they use, or something changed inside the company, you know? And the thing is, when you say, we don't say subcontractor rates this high. I mean, here's, here's the thing. Everybody makes their own pricing decisions based on their own business and their own needs and their own financial whatever, right? And so that is fine for somebody to charge less for their hourly rate or their subcontractor rate, or whatever that has that's like, none of your business that has nothing to do with you. So what I don't want you to do is be like, Oh, well, we should probably be charging that, right? You know what I'm saying? It's you can't look at at it like that. I think you have to sort of look at it. From, how is this sales process going, you know, on this project, and what do I do now? So, totally relate to, like, you know, listen, we're done here. But I think that, I think it has to have a, you have to have a conversation with them, you know. Like, what did this all come over email? Yes, yeah. So the person that you're working with most closely, I would say, you know, I have some questions. Probably easier to just jump on the phone. Can we find 20 minutes or so? And I think the questions are really, actually adopting the same approach as what we did with your other client, which is, like, what's really going on here? I'm so confused. Less about, like, sort of fighting the numbers, but, you know, really saying, like, adapting that posture. That's like, I'm not selling at you. Help me. Help you. You know, we're sitting next to each other now. So it's like, you know, I'm a little confused, you know, tell me what's really going on. I just, you know, the more I know, the more I can, like, fit something that that works for you, but it's just probably better to talk it out. So, like, what's, did you guys get some feedback on this? Or did I'm saying the same way you would be, like, you know, to a friend, you know, listen, you sort of, like, bailed on this party. Is there? Is there something going on? Like, I know you wanted to go. So, you know, did you get a phone call or, you know, that sort of thing.

17:43

Okay, that feels good. I feel comfortable having that conversation.

Leah Neaderthal17:47

Yeah. And then, because you don't have any data, right, you have no information right. Now, once you have that conversation, then you can make a better choice. Listen, is this something that we can figure out how to do, or are you looking for something that we just can't provide in our current model,

18:01

yeah, okay, you know. And if it is the like, Fuck this, we're gonna walk away. That's, you know, that feels like an emotional place. But if you're like, what you're looking for,

Leah Neaderthal18:10

it's kind of like what I said, what you're looking for, is not what we can provide in our current business model. Then it's like the business isn't a fit. Do you know what I'm saying? It's not like you have somehow wronged me, right? That makes sense to me. All right, cool. Let me know what happens with that as well. All right, so a few days later, she sent me this message over Voxer,

18:33

hi, Leah, I had two questions I forgot to ask you in our session today. The second question was I talked to the group that was really pushing us on the hourly rates, and that was questioning our rates for contractors, etc. I talked to the the client, like point of contact, one on one, and he seemed equally frustrated, and he said that the reason they're trying to push everything down is not the budget. Like the budget is fine, the scope of work is fine. Everyone's bought in, but the finance people don't want to send a precedent, so they'd say our hourly rates are too high, because they don't want to set a precedent for having to pay us this high again, or to pay similar orgs that high. So I don't really know what to do with that. I think he did say something. He essentially was like, listen, just send them an email, because I told him, you know, we pay our contractors and equitable rate. It's tied to our values. Essentially, it was just like, I don't this is why we didn't do the hourly breakdown, because of these exact kind of complications. He was like, You know what? Just send them an email saying that these rates are tied to your values, something to that effect. And just, he had questions about overhead. He didn't know overhead was included in the rate, but then they have a limit over it has to be 15% I just don't know the client contact seems annoyed, and it's like, just, just say enough that they will get it through. Is what I'm getting from him. But I also don't know what the line is. I just the kind of frustrated. I don't really want to do hourly work, but I appreciate your help helping me. Like, what is just emotional in my reaction, just like, oh, this is too much labor. I'm annoyed. It's been months. I probably put 15 hours into the proposal process at this point, but that's it. Thank you.

20:12

Hey, all right, so this is really, really annoying, and I would say, also disappointing from someone from a company like, and I'm sure your contact is, you know, like, who is your client's client, right? Like, we talked about that, and so clearly they're getting, they're like, at their their want this done, right? They don't want to be in the middle of this anymore. I think, though, that you have an opportunity to, like, put it back on them, you know, in the sense that, like, we have set our pricing to be fair and equitable for our contractors. And I'm a little torn, as I'm sort of talking through this about like we can, we can go down to x or or just saying like this is, these these are our rates, and we have decided this in order to be fair and equitable to our people. We you know, part of our mission is to address inequity at all levels, including pay inequity for people who are who don't have as much power, including freelancers and contractors. And so I here's what I what I'm basically getting at is like, assert your position and let them be the one to say, I like, I hear what you're saying about equitable pay, but we want it for less. See what I mean. Like, then it's like, the choice is up to them. You know, I understand this represents a lot of money. But I think what the rub here is that it betrays a something that goes against the mission, right? Not just your mission, but probably their mission, and the mission of this program, you know, and and for this program to succeed, we cannot, you know, espouse equity in the program work, and also like not pay fairly and equitably to the people who are doing the work right? That is, that is not the way to solve this problem. And so this is what we're doing, right? Tell me what you make of that. Tell me how that sits with you. And I would, I would keep the dialog open with your main contact, and either you can run it by your main contract, like, this is what we're saying. Want to let you know, or this is what we're we're saying. Do you see a real way that we could say this that would resonate more, right? Like sort of involve them in the communication? I don't know. Let me know what you think about that.

22:41

Thank you. Leah, this is so, so helpful. I think you're right in terms of the approach that feels very aligned. Just talk about it from an equity values perspective. And yeah, I think I will email the con point of contact first. And yeah, make it feel more like I'm supporting him and getting his thoughts on how he will land. I do think there might be a larger issue I'm realizing, which is one of my main criteria is people have to opt into the work. I'm not trying to convince naysayers. And after we got pretty far into the process and let me know, I'll be working with not training like their staff, but coaching their grantees. And they did say, oh, it's not opt in. Like, if they accept our money, they have to work with you. And it's sort of a mix of like, how the grantees might react and ask a lot of questions to sort of gage their interest and capacity. But I haven't gotten to meet them yet because we don't have a contract in place, so I think I'm actually a little worried that the project won't be successful. Maybe it's also why I'm frustrated that they're being so nitpicky on the money. I feel like if they're already questioning the efficacy, and then they're telling me that their team may or may not want to opt in, my having a bit of a moment about like this might be a larger issue about the project not being set up for success. So thank you for helping me think through this. They want to sit with this, decide if this is like a total No, or if it's workable with the scope, then I can use this approach. Thank you so much.

24:12

Yeah, I agree this. That is a, you know, interesting and slightly big plot twist, you know, basically, because what if you consider replay, the whole how this is all gone, it's like, oh, you know, we're doing the work is at a different price for an entirely different client, right? Like they're the buyers, but the users have this, like, foisted on them, you know? And so, yeah, yeah. I just don't to me, it's, this is the second time that, for whatever reason, either on purpose or by accident, they haven't been totally forthright about the work and the engagement with you. So I think that's it's worth really spending spending some time with that.

Leah Neaderthal24:56

So a few days later, my client reached back out with an update.

25:01

Hi, Leah, I made some moves on that. I would like your reflections on I think I realized that, like we talked about, it wasn't feeling like the project was set up for success. My main point of contact throughout scoping or going through reorg, he's not even be on the project anymore. I'm getting the sense that he's like over it and just wants to close this so he can do his new job. The other point of contact, who will be I will be working with the most, has not been involved at all in the documentation process, like approving budgets and all that stuff. And I'm getting the sense. They told me that I had a call with him, and he said that they want to use our budgets to set a precedent for what they pay us in the future, and partners like us, which is a lot of pressure, because now they're forcing me to do hourly and all that sort of stuff. And the client themselves, this point of contact, is saying, like, you know, it's an experiment. We'll see how it goes. Not a big deal, like we already earmarked the money. But then the budget team is like, this needs to be a precedent. Why are you paying this person so much? I think there's a conflict between they're like, Yeah, let's see what happens. And I'm like, No, I think the budget team is going to hold us accountable for outcomes, and this is how their structure works internally. So I just sent them an email saying, like, Hey, y'all, there's some there's some unresolved questions here, and I'm just going to talk it out with them and see what's possible. But I don't know. My hunch is to like, say, let's do a baby scope. Like, let's do an exploratory two or three months where, you know, I'm advising you or experimenting, and then go from there, I'm feeling like the pressure of the big budget when this project's not really set up so for success, does not really make sense. Do you have any reactions? Like, should I just let them go at this point? I guess we'll see how they react to me saying this is not set up for success. I think they have a feeling that might be the case. But I need to figure out if I'm going to, yeah, if they're just like, it is what it is, I might drop them. But I'm trying to think of what is the Okay, here's my question. Have you done this before, where you do sort of a babyscope or more exploratory thing, if a client just doesn't have their shit together in terms of figuring it out? Figuring it out, basically, they set up the project a certain way. It's not set up for success. I don't want to walk into that and then be the partner that's not successful, but I do want to help them. It's a really compelling project, and I think it could have massive impact on the field at large, like this type of work I do is chronically underfunded. This one piece, they want to make it well funded, and like, a precedent that field. So it is exciting. It's just not set up for success. So is there a way in which they, I, they pay me to help them redo this process, or, like, reset the scope? The other you know, they might say no to that, but I'm feeling like I don't want to miss the opportunity to influence the field in this way. Could move millions over the next couple years, but this project is kind of a flop the way they've designed it.

27:50

Hey, I think that, well, first of all, I just want to commend you, because I think that, you know, I think a lot of people would be really starstruck with the client and the potential revenue, and just be like, yes, yes, yes, whatever you want, jump through all the hoops. And so I think it's really admirable that you're like, this does not feel right by me or right for the mission, right? So to your question, can we do a baby scope? So yes, I think that approaching this like, listen, there's, you know, a few disconnects. It's probably best. This project would be best served if we get on, on the same page. We actually, you know, it's becoming clear that we don't have the necessary information to be able to implement this most effectively. So why don't we reset and to your question about a baby scope. So there's this acronym that is not cute, but it's D, V, E, P, right, D, BEP, defined value, defined engagement, defined price, so defined a D BEP project is like it is a very clear scope to achieve one very clear outcome, like creating the DEI roadmap for the organization and a defined price. So it's not hourly, the meter is not running, you know? You know, it's just like, this is the price. This is what this is what the deliverables are. This is the value of those deliverables for the organization. So the reason why I'm introducing the D lab concept is because people do not want to pay for an exploratory anything. They only want to pay for what the exploratory thing will get them right. And so think beyond. I would encourage you to think beyond, like, just, you know, let's we'll do a strategy, or we'll do, like, an exploratory thing. We'll do some research, because people just don't, it's not enough to command, probably the price that you want to charge. But they will, if we can, you know, set it up like we will create a, you know, comprehensive dei SWOT analysis strategy roadmap. What have you that is worth. Scoping around. And so it can be just like a project price. And because I agree, you know, it's one thing to sort of say we have this big mission, and it's another thing to have, like, the price be driven down and a lot of conflict or whatever. And so I think that getting the first Yes, which is what we're trying to do here, getting the first Yes. If people can say yes to one thing, and if people can sign on for one thing, then they are more likely to sign on for something else, right? So let's try to get the first yes in a way that positions it in terms of value for them and also gives you the information that you need to truly you know, do the work effectively. Let me know what you think about that.

30:43

It's really helpful to refer everything you're saying. I'm like, yes, yes, yes. That feels better. That feels right. I did talk to them today and have sort of a call it a course correct conversation around like, hey, yeah, there's some big flags here. And I think they've are, they've gotten so far in the process that, like, sunk cost concept you introduced, that they were like, please don't bail. And I asked for a smaller scope. And they said it'll take four months for us to get a contract. But they did say we can start the contract and just set a deliverable so we both acknowledge, like, two or three months in after you've done XYZ, like you talked about, like the stuff to define what the project is, then we can decide if either party can step off, if it's not set up for impact. I'm just going with them what that looks like, but I like your thought better of like, what is the clearly mapped out thing so that, like, when we finish, it's not like the project failed, but we finished phase one and phase two was not deemed appropriate. So that's why I told them I was like, ethically, they kept being like, just take the money. It's like, ethically, I cannot take this money if I don't think it's going to create value. This is really helpful. Thank you. I owe them an email, so I'm going to sit down and listen to your message again. Think about how to map it out. Appreciate it.

Leah Neaderthal31:57

All right. So about 10 days later, my client sends me this message,

32:03

hi, Leah, wanted to get your gut check again. The saga continues. I had expressed my concerns to them last week on a call. They got back to me a couple days later and said that I had asked if we can start with a small contract like you and I had discussed. They said they would explore it. They came back and said, No, we want to keep it the way it is, and you can just put in, like I told you, a deliverable point where you could choose to step back. So essentially, they said exactly what they had said before, and did not accept my other request, because their concern is, if they make this a small contract, then to extend it. If it does go well and we can figure it out, we'll take them another, like, two months of approvals. So I understand what their concern is there, but basically, they were just like, Nope, still doing it our way, and then they want me to redo the budget sheet for the fourth time with the hourly rates. They were like, well, you know, can you break out the recruiting and then break out the admin, and then break this down, and then it's just like, at this point, emotionally, I am so done with them. It's like, you've not been listening. I don't believe in hourly rates in the first place. I've been for you now you're asking me to do redo the budget for the fifth time. Like I'm just, I know it's all about the machine, and so I'd love of their own processes, but I don't know. I'm starting to feel frustrated that they also told me earlier, like, if we need to add budget later, it's fine, it's easy to get more budget. But now they're like, Oh, if we need a new contract, it's a whole thing. I don't know. I'm just feeling, I'm trying to decipher what is burned out in the place of, like, No, fuck this. I'm over it. Versus, no, this is a great strategic project, you know, let's move through the annoyance to get to good work. I don't know if you have any gut reaction. I just feel like I woke up feeling like I don't need this. I want them out. But it is a cool project, potentially.

34:00

So on the thing, yeah, this is, this is really annoying, because, you know, if you play it back from the beginning, the scope changed the people who are going

Leah Neaderthal34:13

to be taking the training, changed the

34:14

personnel, changed the budget, changed the and, you know, changes are normal, but like and the budget and scope in particular, it just feels like it's out of alignment with where you want to, where you want to be, and what feels good to you. And frankly, I think we talked about this in the last call, like it's disappointing honestly for to get this kind of pushback, not pushback in general. It's okay to get pushback, but like this kind of pushback and nickel and diming from this organization. So I mean, if you feel like it's not in line with your integrity and the integrity of the project, and you won't. You can't do good work, and you can't be successful and help them be successful and all of that, then feel free to walk away. You know, I don't think anyone would fault you for that. And we talked about how some money is expensive, but like, you don't need this work right this moment. And just because they're interested in you doesn't mean you have to bend over backwards to make it work. You know, they have the right to work with anyone else who's not as good as you, who's willing to cave to their to their demands. So, you know, do what feels right. You know, hi.

35:30

Leah, that is so helpful. I appreciate it. On both fronts, I think everything you said has resonated. It feels right. It's also like, yeah, we're fully booked. Other people are knocking. I did decide to send an email yesterday evening to them, because I've been sitting on a response for a couple days. And I said that. I was like, listen, we can make it work if we have to, with this contract process of pausing it halfway whatever, but I'm not going to keep redoing the budget. I forgot what I said. It's a little bit more graceful. More graceful, but essentially it was like, you know, we're value based pricing and project fees. We're trying to retrofit to your hourly thing, but it's not even reflecting value anymore, because it's all about finessing the hours and setting a precedent. And you know, this precedent won't hold for us, because next time you hire us, it's also a value based fee, so the rates will be the same anyway. I basically was just like, Hardline. I'm not touching the budget anymore. It is what it is, and we'll see what they come back with. I haven't responded, so don't know what channels they're running it through, but you're right. I think I'm like, even the smallest pushback at this point, I'm just gonna walk. Thanks for helping me frame it as like, Yeah, this is too far.

Leah Neaderthal36:44

Eventually, my client ended up simply declining the project, and as you heard, it wasn't without some conflict, but ultimately she decided that it wasn't the type of working relationship she wanted, even though it was a high dollar amount and it was a big name client. So a few days later, we debriefed about it in a coaching call.

37:05

All right, so we have sort of come to the end of the chapter, right? And any sort of debrief you want to talk about really new to that?

37:15

Yes, I think the one takeaway for me is sometimes I drag a bit, and things end up being longer and more painful than they need to be. And so I'm wondering part of my hopes, and as working with you, Leah, is helping us build more structured checkpoints, boundary points, process points, so these decisions can made or can be made earlier. Because I think, to be honest, the like that I was feeling was from the very first scoping call when they told me, or the second call when they told me that it wasn't opt in. And I feel like how great it would have been if I hadn't been like, hey, huge red flag, heads up. And either we would have both saved the time and they would have been like, we're not changing it, or be like, Okay, I'm not doing it, or it would have been early enough that they would have been like, oh, let's consider changing it. So I think that's my one. I wouldn't say regret. I would say learning is that it just went on for so long before I finally pulled the plug. Yeah, not a great metaphor, but you know what I mean? Like, I'm trying to think, how could we speed this up next time, or separate it from my own processing time? Sometimes I need a lot of processing time, but it helps if there's a structure to be like, No, you've always said you don't do update. Just remind yourself, you know,

38:28

yeah, well, that's what I was gonna say around structure. But before I get there, I mean, you know, it's easy to blame ourselves, right? I should have called the plug earlier or whatever, but let's not forget that, like, this is the biggest in the country, you know. And so I just want to acknowledge, like, to what degree did you like gaslight yourself a little bit?

38:47

Say more about that?

38:49

Well, you know, you wanted to believe that, you know, they're the biggest one. So they must, they must know the right thing. Wouldn't this be good for our business? How could I say no to this opportunity. And so, you know, it's like when the hottest person in school wants to date you, but they're actually an asshole.

39:13

Yep, I think in particular, what was tricky is that I've been asking people to do this work for years, and no one wants to pay for it. And then when they show up with half a million dollars and they're like, we're going to change the field by making this a strategy that the field uses, it's like, that dream is exciting. If I'm honest, I was never that excited about the particular project.

Leah Neaderthal39:34

Yeah. And so, you know, just going back to what you just said, it's like, yes, there are things we can do. There are you can. We can always try to make decisions about emotion, but let's be a little compassionate to ourselves. Okay? And, you know, I think also the thing with like people who are high achievers, over achievers, type a, you know, whatever. It's like this idea that, like any. Sub par outcome could and should have been avoided. True, right? Yeah, and sometimes it just you can't right, because you're either, in this case, you're sort of lulled in by who it was, right by the organization, and you do want to do interesting work, and the hottest person in this world did want to date you, and so you and so you just got sucked in. So yes, is it unfortunate, sure,

40:27

or just, like, sometimes it just doesn't go your way, right? And not go your way as in, you lost it. Go your way as in, you realize that the hottest person in school, like, actually is an asshole. Yeah, that's right.

Leah Neaderthal40:39

All right, yep. Okay, cool. So onwards and upwards, right? Yes, all right. So there is so much goodness to pull out here, but let me try to just hone in on what I feel like are the most important points. First off, the most important thing to know is that this is actually a huge win. And I know a lot of you are going to say this wasn't a win because she didn't actually get the client, but that's just a really narrow way of looking at wins, and frankly, it's really damaging when you're a woman running your own business. Let's come back to that in a second. It's a win because she stood up for herself in front of a potential client that was huge and well funded and had all the power, and she made the right decision for herself and her business despite those factors, she didn't allow herself to be run over or persuaded to do something that she didn't want to do because of those factors, and that is a huge win. On the podcast, we've talked a lot about who has the power in the sales process and who has the control. And so often, women feel uncomfortable and sell it clients because it feels like they have no control. In this case, she may not have had control as it relates to the client's finance process or rules or whatever, but she always had control of her business. She never gave up that control. And again, that's a win. And just real quick, back to the wins thing. I think it's so damaging when we only allow ourselves to have a win, or to, like, celebrate a win, when we've actually won a new client, because there's so much we do in our businesses and with our clients that we should celebrate. We have to celebrate the small wins along the way, and we need to celebrate those wins. So having a great lead come your way, that's a win, finally getting your value statement dialed in, is a win. Pushing through resistance and following up with a potential client, even though it felt so awkward, is a win. All of these little things are wins, because if we only give ourselves kudos when we win a new client, I mean, running a business is hard. We don't need to make it even harder on ourselves. And the last thing I want to pull out from this conversation is something I say to my clients all the time, some money is expensive. Just because the number on paper is a big number doesn't mean it's not without cost, and I'm not talking about hiring contractors, although that does affect your profit. I mean that some money is expensive for other reasons. It might be because it takes a lot more work to deliver than you can manage, and it'll cause you to be overworked. Some money is expensive because something just doesn't feel right, or the client doesn't treat you very nicely, or you don't feel respected, some money is expensive because it's not aligned with your values. So if there's one thing I want you to just take a second and write on a post it note and put on your wall, it's this, some money is expensive, and it's okay to say no to money that's too expensive, because when you say no to the money that's expensive, you create space for the work that has meaning, the work that's aligned, and the work that fulfills you, not just in your bank account, but in your soul. Hey, everything we're talking about in this episode is part of the system. Women like you are learning in the academy. In the Academy, we help women consultants install the two systems. Every B to B consultant needs a marketing system to consistently attract the right clients and a sales system to lead a sales process to a yes and get paid more for every contract. So even if you've only gotten clients through referrals or word of mouth, in the academy, you'll learn how to attract and sign clients outside your network, how to lead a sales process with confidence and how to get paid for your value, not your time, and there's no cold calling or cold emailing involved, no changing your services or making a course, and you won't use any pushy sales tactics. That's just not our vibe. So if you like what you've heard here, the academy may be your right next step to learn how you can get these two systems in your consulting business and make progress faster and with fewer roadblocks. Head to smart gets paid.com/academy and apply, and we can chat about next steps. All right, see you over there. Transcribed by https://otter.ai