Becoming who you need to be: the business owner’s journey, with Jessica Fearnley

Jessica Fearnley 0:02

I do think that when you're past the initial six figure stage, all of these things about how to be a leader, how to lead your business, well, if we haven't done the work ourselves, we can, we can create chaos in our own businesses.

Leah Neaderthal 0:16

Welcome to the Smart Gets Paid Podcast with me, Leah Neaderthal, I help women land higher paying clients in their independent consulting businesses, but I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's so I taught myself how to do it, and I created the sales approach that I now share with my clients so they can feel more comfortable in the sales process. Get more of the right clients and get paid way more for every client contract. So whether your client contracts are $5,000 $100,000 or more, if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love, and get paid more than you ever thought you could, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to rate, review and share.

Hey there. Leah here, thanks for tuning in. I hope that wherever you're listening to this, wherever you are right now, I hope you're having a great week, making some good progress in your business and taking some time for you. So you guys, I hold on to a lot of screenshots and a lot of quotes. Maybe you do too. I have a whole library of them that I pull out for, you know, coaching or just when I need them, or also when I need to remind myself of something. I mean, you should see my Google Keep, which is where I keep them all. It's a treasure trove of like, quotes and tweets and memes. And there's a quote I came across a few years ago, and I've held on to it, and it goes like this. It says, Every next level of your life will demand a different you, and we'll talk about that more in a second. But first, what I think is funny is that that quote is attributed to Leonardo DiCaprio, like the actor, not Leonardo da Vinci, the painter, the sculptor, the philosopher, but Leonardo DiCaprio. And I think most people, when they think of Leonardo DiCaprio, they don't think philosopher, but there is some truth to what he said. Every next level of your life will demand a different you, because think about it, when you want to reach a next level in life, and really in the context of, you know, this podcast and my work, really a next level in business, then you have to, you know, look at some of the beliefs that you've held up to this point, what we lovingly call head trash, and some of the behaviors you've had up to this point, and maybe explore why they are or aren't serving you anymore.

And you have to build new beliefs and behaviors that do serve you, essentially becoming a next version of you you know who you are and who you need to be that will help you not only reach that next level, but stay there and continue to grow. And I've actually seen this in my own life and my own business at multiple points, and it's something that I'm even thinking about now, because, you know, I just turned 45 a few days ago, which, you know, feels kind of like a big deal, and it's like, who am I in this season of my life and this season of my business, and who do I need to be moving forward? And so that's what we're talking about today, in regards to your business, who you need to be, really, who all of us need to be to reach bigger milestones in your business and to have that conversation.

I'm so excited to welcome my friend and fellow business owner, Jessica Fernley. Jessica is a business coach for seven figure consultants, and I've known Jessica for several years now, and as you'll hear, you know, the things we do and the ways we think about things are so complimentary. I just love talking to her. And Jessica's incredible skill is in helping women who are approaching, you know, the high sixes and seven figures, these bigger milestones, become the business owner that they need to be to reach those levels and continue to grow. And so in our conversation, you're going to hear why it's so important to explore who you are and who you need to be. You're going to hear why the biggest fear that most women consultants have isn't actually failing, it's something else. And you're going to hear how to think about yourself as a business owner and as a leader as you reach these bigger milestones in your business. I am so excited for you to listen in, because I know you're going to come away looking at your own growth and your own mindset and your own success differently. So take a listen to my conversation with Jessica Fernley, and at the end, I'll come back and share. And that you can apply to your business.

Jessica, thank you so much for being

Jessica Fearnley 5:05

here. Thank you for having me. Leah, it's a pleasure. It's so fun

Leah Neaderthal 5:10

to see you because we, you know, we've worked together. I've been on your podcast. I feel like it's nice to it's just nice to be back together. I can't believe it's been a few years

now at this point. Yeah,

Jessica Fearnley 5:21

we, we met back in like 2019 didn't we? So it's, it's been a good long time, and I have to say, I have been consistently impressed by you, Leah, the entire time I've known you, and I love seeing your content. I was just saying to you even before we started, I love listening to your podcast. I think you cover some really awesome content on this. So it's really exciting to be here today.

Leah Neaderthal 5:43

Thank you so much. Well, that's our show. You guys, thanks so much for Jessica for being here. Yeah. No, it's and it's so fun being in your orbit, right? So we met when you did pack your pipeline. That was the first time we, like did something together. And then I remember that you just took it and ran with it. And I feel like in, even in the first couple months, I remember you got, like, tapped for a like, LinkedIn top voice. And I was like, see, this is what happens when you really focus and you do the work, and you put in the work. And now, I mean, you have this incredible audience. And I love all the, you know, everything you're putting out. And so it's been incredible to see how your business has grown and shifted. And

Jessica Fearnley 6:28

yeah, it's been a bit of a wild ride. And I just really vividly remember, I don't actually do a lot of courses, but yours have been recommended to me, and I think I went to like, a webinar that you did, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this stuff sounds amazing and exactly what I need. And yeah, it was. It was a very exciting year, that year that I did the course, because I am totally the kind of person if I'm doing something, I do it 1,000% and I took it really seriously. I followed it, I think, to the letter. And yeah, just had this amazing kind of momentum build up, which culminated in being named one of the top voices in the category of small business and entrepreneurship in 2019 which was like, Oh my gosh. And

Leah Neaderthal 7:09

that was when it was, like, actually hard to get, you know, they Yeah, before they sort of like

Jessica Fearnley 7:13

the community badge version. And it was, it was very much like a bolt from the blue, but they liked the content that I was doing about closing the gender pay gap for women consultants. And so it was just an incredible honor. And, yeah, it's led to all kinds of opportunities.

Leah Neaderthal 7:30

And I remember back when we first met, when, you know, you sort of see people across the internet, right? And you're like, Oh, they're doing cool stuff. And I looked into I was looking at you and your business, and I was at first, I was like, Well, wait a minute, don't we do the same thing? And then I dug into it a little bit more, and you and I had some great conversations. And I was like, oh, you know, no, we don't, but we really do focus in different areas. So from your perspective, like, where do you play, and where do I play, and how is that different? Yeah,

Jessica Fearnley 7:59

well, I kind of think there's two dimensions to this. First of all, quite often, Leah, you are teaching people how to how to do the nuts and bolts, like how to get a good lead, how to write a good proposal. I am not a good teacher. I get very bored doing the teaching. I'm much more interested in, kind of, like, the mess that starts to happen when, when women are in that sort of 300,000 stage, all the way up to seven figures, when they're starting to hit some of these capacity issues, and their lives are kind of they're doing the thing they wanted to do, but it's not working out in the way that they wanted, and it's feeling very uncomfortable because they are just out of capacity. So in my mind, I often see it is like, Leah, you help them get, like, booked out and fully sold out with the things that you teach and the kind of really logical and logistic way that you go about that. And then in the later stage of business, when it's more about, like, the personal gain they need to be playing, it's like, right? Let me teach you why you're not doing the things that you say you want to do. Because I think that we get these huge emotional blocks that come up, because it's a huge transition, isn't it, when you get past the point where you were earning in corporate, I think that can be a really powerful thing, because suddenly it's like, oh my gosh, I've not made this much money before, and all of these like mindset things start to really kick in. And I'm sure that you've noticed that, like in your clients as well. Leah, it's just it can be something where people start to feel really uncomfortable, sometimes even unsafe in their business, and they're like, seriously, this is working. It's freaking me out. We are so comfortable when things are not working and when they feel messy and frustrating, but when we start to get into that almost like open green field stage of business, where it really is just like, Okay, if we take on two more clients, and if we push up the prices, and, you know, there are just things we can do seven figures is literally, it's on the table. It's something that people can achieve. I think that can be a terrifying thing for. Lot of women, you know, we enjoy almost the feeling of, like, not being able to get there. And it's quite a it's quite a daunting thing to go through. But, yeah, I think, in a nutshell, I think that you often do a really great job with, like, the logistical side, the practical, tactical and I'm, more on, like the emotional, I want to say fluffy side. It's kind of like, let's get you playing a strong inner game. Let's get you kind of making the right strategic decisions so that you can grow the business beyond the basics. Because I think there is, like, a distinct phase, sort of pre six figures and post six figures, where you've just got to change the game slightly. I don't know. Would you agree with that? 100% 100%

Leah Neaderthal 10:47

you know, I talk about, and I always say that I I am not a business coach, per se. I, you know, when I explain it to people, I say, I operate a very small but important slice of running a business, which is, how do you get the clients and how do you get paid, right? And how you get paid more and so, and, yeah, I call myself a sales coach, because that is, you know, that's sort of the common term, but I think I'm more of a teacher than a coach, you know. I'm not like the, you know, the answers are inside of you. It's more like, do it this way, right?

Jessica Fearnley 11:21

Yeah, whereas I love that whole thing of like, what are you feeling? What's coming up? Why look and

Leah Neaderthal 11:26

and, you know, of course, there's some of that in my work, specifically related to the selling part, the sales part, right? How do you feel more comfortable, you know, talking to anybody, whether it's a junior associate or the CEO of a company? How do you unlearn some of these things that we've learned growing up about how we're supposed to show up and all that in the sales process? This is why our staff works so nicely together. Because, yeah, if you're going to get to the point where you need to become a this different person and really do this inner work, right? You have to actually get there. And you know, you're getting there because you know how to generate revenue, right? And so it's like you have to know how to do what I tell you to, you know, teach you to do in order to even have the privilege of exploring, who do I need to be to take my business to seven figures and beyond, right? I always feel like, if somebody, if I've worked with somebody, and they get to the point where they need you, then I've done my job. And so I always, you know, I say that, like, there's the problems in a business, in a consulting business, like, never go away, but you upgrade your problems and there, yeah, you know, you sort of, you upgrade the problem from, how do I make money, or, you know, how do I get more of the right clients, and how do I get paid more, and all that stuff and so, and then you upgrade to the type of problems that you actually face at that, at that next level, right at that, yeah, you

Jessica Fearnley 12:58

know. And it's fascinating, because, yeah, some problems are exactly the same. They're just, like, with bigger numbers involved, like, kind of scarcity, fear of, like, losing it all, like, you know, what if the business just, like, goes away, whereas some things, they are literally things that happen when you are in a situation that you've never been in before. And I think money always provides, like, a fantastic arena for all of these things to play out because, like I shared before, I think when you are in a situation where you have more money than you've ever had, it's tempting. And I see this a lot women are still playing some of the scarcity games that we play of like, oh, I can't afford that. Now. How do you as a person deal with no, I can afford everything. I can afford anything that I want at this point, and yet there's still part of you that feels like you don't, you don't deserve it, you didn't earn it. It was too easy. If it's not hard, then it doesn't count. And that whole thing of like, oh, I made the money, but it doesn't count. I hear women say versions of that all the time, you know, from like, Oh, I was 10,000 short of my like, you know, $500,000 goal for the year. So I didn't hit it, so I don't get to celebrate, and I'm always like, I'm sorry. Are you joking? Like, look what you did, you know. So I think there's, there's a fascinating array of things that can come up, and I think our subconscious minds are endlessly creative, and we can develop problems that we've never had before and things that we worry about that we've never thought about before. And really it comes down to like, I need to be comfortable becoming my next level self. I need to be comfortable with this new version of me that is in some ways, very similar to I've always been but in some ways is actually quite different. It's a fascinating process.

Leah Neaderthal 14:38

I know it is because parts of it sort of show itself as when you start to get, you know, bigger clients, or make more money, or what have you, and you start to see that the things you're doing are working right. And I think that what you're talking about around these, these problems that sort of rear their ugly heads, or we will find ways to make problems. And I think self sabotage is. You know, yeah, comes up as well, well. So I want to let you know maybe, let's shine a light on what are some of the more common things that you might see when it starts to work right, and it's they start to get into these higher numbers and they're making more than they ever have. What are some of the most common parts of themselves that come up that are maybe preventing them from being their next level self? Or,

Jessica Fearnley 15:27

oh, yeah, that's, that's a great question. Yeah,

I definitely find that like, I call it like a don't look down moment. It's when you've just been kind of sailing along. And I'm sure you're familiar with this. You know, when you just get good at sales and you're like, Haha, this is easy. Everything just happens. And the numbers keep going up and up in the business, and then you hit like, some kind of road bump. And it's not always something very significant. It's not like, oh my gosh, my revenue just fell by 50% sometimes it's just like, something gets triggered and it feels really weird, and you suddenly have this moment where it's like you're walking from one skyscraper to the next across a little tightrope, and you look down and you're like, oh my gosh, I am very high right now, you know? And it's that realization of like you have been doing enormous things. You have been doing all of this growth. And then you look back to where you started, and you're like, I don't recognize myself, and suddenly the stakes feel really high, and it just feels like, oh my gosh, I don't think I can do this. And I've seen it a lot of times, actually, that women, they very much need, like, some scaffolding in that moment, firstly, to be like, Look, I know you feel like you're in a tightrope, but you're not. You're very safe. Everything is very secure. This is, this is growth that we wanted. It's something you've worked really hard for. Because I think that's definitely another thing. If it feels like it's been too easy, then that really freaks people out. I think we have so much conditioning about it has to be hard to make money. And so then suddenly, when it's like, no, that's actually quite easy. And one of the things that I encourage my clients to do is have a minimum contract size of $100,000 and with the kind of consulting that they're doing, actually 200 to 400,000 is very plausible. So what you end up with is a business where you sometimes have less than 10 clients, and you're in the high six figures, you're you're doing seven figures, and it's that moment of like, this is just so easy. And I think what you were saying before Leo about self sabotage, absolutely that can come in whereas, you know, if, if we, if we find it to be too easy, we will create ways to make it harder. And I think it's always really interesting there. There are just these points in business, and I've absolutely experienced this where you kind of have like two narratives running the one of like, I do not feel good. I feel like this isn't going well. I feel frightened for the future. And then you look at what you're doing and you're like, oh my gosh, no, I'm doing so much better than I think I am. Why does it feel like this? But quite often, women will just be like, I want to quit. I want to get a corporate job. I want to go back. And you kind of, you sit with it, you're like, why? What's happening? And they're like, I just don't feel good about this. I don't trust it. Is too easy,

Leah Neaderthal 18:06

right? I don't trust it. It's too easy. It could all go away. And if it goes away now, it'll be even more disastrous. So, yeah, so what can you do in that moment? I mean, what's the kind of scaffolding that you're going to want to think about in that moment? Yeah,

Jessica Fearnley 18:26

well, the thing is this, this is so personal for each client, because it really depends. Like, you know, what has your life been like? What has your childhood been like? What was your exit from corporate like, or your experience in corporate like? Because I think there are these, these traumatic things that can happen to us in all of those stages where we can almost like take on like narratives sometimes that don't belong to us. You know, if a manager has told you that you're not good with people or you're not good at managing your team, that will very often be something that women carry with them into their business, and they're like, I will do this as a solopreneur, but I will never build a team, because I'm not good at that. And sometimes we we need to almost rewind, like, 10 years to the point that they were told that by their line manager, and be like, do we think that maybe that was unfair criticism, or could it be that that was true at the time, but you've had 10 years to develop, and this is something that actually can be learned, and you are able to do it. So I think it's, it's a little bit of deconstructing of some of these narratives that we allow to build up. I think it's also like looking at, like, what is the fear like? You know, with some of these things, if you suddenly get that, don't look down moment, and you're, you're terrified of everything, it's like, what is, what is the fear actually about? Because when we understand that in specific terms, often it just goes away when you shine a light on it, or you can realize there is something here, like, I think often, if you've been part of a toxic workplace, which a lot of women who become consultants, they have left for a specific reason. Maybe there was bullying in their team. Maybe they were directly bully. Maybe they're pushed out of their job. And so you can almost construct like an environment in your business that starts to feel very familiar in uncomfortable ways. So sometimes it's literally just saying, Do you know what? You didn't enjoy being part of an agency? So we're not going to build this business as an agency and realizing that you have full control over the way that you do everything, and that's very important when I work with clients, because I've got a lot of experience from my career, but also from 10 years of working with women entrepreneurs and consultants, I've seen a lot of different things. So we don't just have to build it one way. We can really create it to be exactly what they're looking for. You're

Leah Neaderthal 20:39

totally right. And I've heard, I've heard something very similar, like, I'll, you know, work with women who are solopreneurs, and, like most of my clients are, and they'll say, Well, I don't want to build a, you know, huge agency. I came from the agency world, and I don't say this out loud, but I'm thinking like, these are not the only two options. There's, there's a huge chasm between you being a solopreneur and you know, the 500,000 10,000 person, you know, multinational corporation you came from. And just because you take one step toward, you know, out of solopreneurship doesn't mean that you have this, like, massive agency. And I think what it tells me in that moment, I mean words offer clues, right? And so, you know, clearly it's like, file this away, because clearly that experience meant something to this person, you know, to this woman, in some way, right? That that it's like either solopreneur or massive thing. And so you're right. I mean, I think one challenge is, you know, we only have the experiences we have, and we there's not a lot out there about, like, what it looks like to run a consulting business at different Yeah, you know, sizes or stages or whatever. You know, I always tell women that, like, the reason why, even women who start consulting businesses, they wanted to work directly with clients, right? The reason why you think that you have to make a course or sell a $47 thing, or, you know, have a membership or whatever, is because that's those are the people who are advertising to you, right? Yeah, those are, and those are B to C businesses. So that's what you see. And the women who are running, like, really successful B to B consulting businesses at, you know, the low seven figures, the mid seven figures, the high seven figures, right? Like, those are hidden, and we just don't have visibility into what that looks like. And so it's like, if you can't, if you don't see it, you can't be it, right? And so I think part of this is, you know, showing them and telling them there are other ways, and whatever you dream it to be is what it can be, right? I mean, is there any part of that, you know? How would you respond to that?

Jessica Fearnley 22:52

Oh, I agree 1,000% i i speak so much about like, you don't need a B to C business model, you don't need to have a big email list. You don't need to do these things. The awesome thing about consulting, and I love that you've kind of said that about the invisible, successful businesses, Leah, because when it comes to B to B sales, it's often a case of, like, actually, quite old school. It's emails, it can be phone calls, it's meetings. It's not necessarily doing these kind of at scale online business techniques,

Leah Neaderthal 23:25

but like, you know, like you don't need 100,000 person list. I mean, I think you and I, yeah, I think, you know, anyone would say you do have to be visible in some way, right? Like, you have to be on social media in some way, or in, you know, of course, I, for most of my clients, that's LinkedIn. But you don't have to have, like, a membership course or sell a sell like a $47 thing, right? It's like, spend your time build, nurturing relationships and selling things that are much higher value.

Jessica Fearnley 23:56

Yeah. Well, and the thing is, once you've built like him, I call it kind of stage four work. I have, like, a four stage framework, with stage one being, like entry level, like training. It's repeatable. You can get a junior on your team to do it through to stage four, which is, like, this is the highest ticket work that you'll do. It's often being the trusted advisor. You get paid for your brain. You get paid for the words that come out of your mouth to your client. And these are the things that you can often charge very high ticket for which that's a mindset growth area in itself. But quite often, if you, if you stack your business revenue with stage four work, like I said, I encourage people to charge $100,000 for their their core thing that they offer. If you get 10 of those, you're at seven figures. If you can increase the price beyond $100,000 that makes it less than 10 clients, which is even easier. But once you've nailed that, if you are building an audience on social media around your brand and your thought leadership, you can actually build in some of those B to C things at that stage when you have. The budget to fund them properly and resource them, and then you it becomes like a bit of a sort of momentum building thing where you can grow both ends of the business from each end of the business. It's, I call it sort of the Yin Yang business model. I love it, but you do not need to do those things. And I think that it's always really interesting seeing what people think they have to do. And sometimes I think women can get in this almost rebellious stage where they're like, I don't want to do these things. And it's like, okay, don't do them. And quite often they're like, Oh, I thought you're going to tell me that I had to. It's like, it's not how I coach. But I think it's always, it's always a challenge for women to understand that they don't necessarily need to do things they don't want to do. Because one of the things that I very much teach is like, let's, let's lower the path of resistance, or let's, let's lower your resistance to some of the things that you think you need to do. Let's only do stuff that you actually enjoy and that makes you feel really good, and because, actually, that is the quickest way to take crazy action, because if you feel really good about it, you're going to tell everyone that you're doing it, and then that's the visibility piece. But I think the other thing that I see is that quite often, if you've had, like, a decades long corporate career, sometimes it can be as simple as just phoning some people that you've known for, like, 25 years. And you know, quite a lot of women have a lot of contacts like that. You can get quite a lot of your work from your network. So that means that, yes, you can still be present on LinkedIn, because I think it's always useful to let the world know that you're there. And I certainly find there are people who I have never seen engage on any of my stuff. I wouldn't know that we're connected on LinkedIn, and yet, when they come forward to work with me, they're like, oh, yeah, I've been following you for like, a year. I've been listening to your podcast. I love it. And it's like, yeah, never said. Like, no

Leah Neaderthal 26:55

idea. Those are the lurkers, right? We love the lurkers Exactly.

Jessica Fearnley 26:59

And it's impossible to know that they're there until they get to that point where they come forward. But I think that it's just a bonus to be active on LinkedIn, because there are always people watching and being impressed by what we're doing, even if they don't give us that clue until the very last minute.

Leah Neaderthal 27:15

Absolutely. And I think you're totally right, like in terms of what I think, you know, what I also think of, like the visibility piece, not just in sort of showing up on social media, which is sort of a to some degree, you know, you can't be quietly awesome. You do have to be visible in some way. But I think there's like, just visibility into how people run their businesses, right? Like, you know who are, who's on your team? When did you bring them on? How did you start to peel off things? And all of that is, all of that is hidden as well. And so I think we're a lot of women are just we can only operate with what we've seen, right? And so they're sort of using that, and it is sort of holding them back and making them play, play small, right? And you talked about some fears that women have as they're growing their business and, you know, being more successful, I kind of feel like a lot of women have an unspoken, you know, of course, there's a fear that things won't work out, that it'll all go away, but I think there's a unspoken fear of success as well, fear that it will work out. Do you see this, and you know, how does that come up in your work? Yeah,

Jessica Fearnley 28:31

that's such a great question, because I think it's always really interesting the people in our lives who are really excited for what we're doing. It's it's weird, and it's unusual to be a woman entrepreneur who is making money and is successful. And that annoys me, and I imagine that it annoys you as well. Leah, but the odds are not in our favor in in those terms, with 2% of women entrepreneurs getting to seven figures, apparently, 90% of women entrepreneurs don't make it to six figures. So you know, for everyone listening, if you've already hit six figures, you are in the top 10% of women entrepreneurs. That is, that is a very exceptional thing. What we sometimes see is that people have a category for struggling female entrepreneurs, but they don't have a category for successful women. And so there can be people who are really excited for you and are really pleased about that, but there can also be people who may not say it, but they are not that happy for you.

And I think when we change, and this is so fascinating to me, because I think it happens across so many different kind of intersections, but if you are known for not having money, like not being in a good place, it can really shift the balance in a lot of your relationships, if you then suddenly become someone who's quite successful, someone who's financially independent. I think that can trigger stuff in other people, and it can feel deeply uncomfortable, and in my pro. Gram, the seven figures club, one of the things that comes up as conversation fairly often is just this thing of like, is it okay to tell people that we're successful? Is it okay to talk about numbers, you know, and if, if you can do kind of $100,000 in sales in a month, and that kind of thing, how do you how do you hold that with other people, other entrepreneurs. Because sometimes, if women entrepreneurs are engaged in the struggle phase, you know, I regularly upset people just by the name of my company, being seven seven figure consultant. Some people like, I hate seven figures, and I hate people who talk about seven figures. And I think it's, it's almost a challenge to kind of have people be open to that? Because I think seven figures is not like this high mountain for women entrepreneurs who are consultants. I think it's actually quite a logical thing for them to do. And something that, like, if you have that corporate expertise, is a very reasonable goal. Actually, it's very realistic. And that's a word that I often ban my clients from using because there's all this talk about like, Oh, is it realistic? Is it realistic to want this?

But I think that seven figures is realistic for women consultants, but I think that it's something that we have to learn how to hold when we become successful, even when it's that kind of invisible success that people might not know that you have a consulting business. They might not know how much money that you make, but it does mean that the kind of camaraderie that you have, like when you're a struggling entrepreneur, you can't really be a part of those circles in the same way. And I do think that that is, it's a shame, but it's also, it's kind of a privilege, but that in itself is a very complicated thing. Like, you know, I think when you can increase your personal net worth substantially, you kind of are creating your own privilege, but that is also a deeply uncomfortable thing that we need to make our peace with. I mean, what? Yeah, what's your feeling on this? Leah,

Leah Neaderthal 31:56

well, I think that you know everything you're saying. I I mean, again, this is why I always love talking to you, because I'm right there with you. And I think that there's a challenge of, when you get there, wherever there is right to some like level of success, being comfortable with it. How do you hold it? How do you talk about it? How do you you know? And I think you're right, like we all inherit the way we feel about money from people in our lives, probably, you know, early on, probably people who wanted the best for us, right? And taught us lessons about money that do rear their ugly heads when we when we get to be grown ups, right? And then when we also get to be successful, and then all of a sudden, you know, the way we feel about money is like what your grandmother told you when you were four years old. And, you know, we do have to sort of unpack that.

But I also think that there's the fear of success that keeps people from even getting there, right? Like you said, I hate seven figures. I don't want to talk about seven figures, you know. I think that, you know, this fear that it actually might be successful. You know, very few people actually say that, but I hear it in other ways. You know, yeah, I just did recently, did the CRM, set up boot camp, and we talk, you know, we set up our pipeline, and you set up your CRM, and we identify people to to, to, you know, start to reach out to who are people that you know, right, who you probably haven't talked to in years. And one thing that I hear a lot is like, well, I don't want to do any outreach, because, like, I don't, I don't want to get overwhelmed with work, right? Yeah, I don't want to get overwhelmed with work. And so we talked about that in the boot camp, and I sort of broke it down. I'm like, think about like, think about all of the steps that have to happen between you sending an email to, I don't know, reconnect with somebody you used to work with, you know, just like you mentioned, to starting conversations, to the sales process, which can take three to 18 months, to them being ready, to them having a having a need, and being ready, and having budget alignment and all that stuff. And also, by the way, you're in charge, nobody is going to force you to work with them on a timeline that doesn't work. And it was like this, you know, light bulb moment for people. They're like, wait a minute, because I think it is this holdover from corporate, right, like when you're in these early roles, and you do have to take on whatever people throw at you, you know, but running your business, you actually don't. But the clue is in the the question, or the clue is in the objection, right? It's like, I don't want to do anything because I don't want to get overwhelmed with work. To me, that's like, I It's a fear of fear of success, like fear of it working out, and, yeah, 100% it keeps us where we are, and then makes it uncomfortable when we get there, right? I don't know. It's just, it's very complicated,

Jessica Fearnley 34:51

yeah, and I think it's, it's really interesting, that whole thing, because often, I think when you start to build up momentum in your business, and you're, you're getting. Are lots of inquiries coming in, and you're creating proposals, and I think that can freak people out, because they're like, what is happening? Because if you're not really having to do much marketing, if you're not having to try particularly hard, and I see this for my clients quite often, because I do my best work with clients who are really good at sales, because, like, they're creating this chaos for themselves, because they are like, I've got more work than I can handle. What do I do about this? And it's always like, don't worry. I can tell you what to do about this. This, this is my wheelhouse. But like, I think that people can often be managing quite a bit of anxiety behind the scenes by being in control of everything. And when the business is going quite slowly, you can be in control of every single comma on every single email, and everything happens the exact speed that you want it to, whereas when you get more leads and inquiries coming in, when you're sending out proposals all the time, you're getting them back, and people are saying, yes.

Firstly, I think people start to panic because they're like, Well, what am I going to do? Because I don't have the team in place to deal with this. I don't have the capacity. We need to build resource. And then people like, Well, what do I do first? Do I build the team, or do I get the work? Because if I, if I take on the team and I don't have the work, then I'm paying them and they don't have anything to do, but if I get the work in them, we'll be overwhelmed, and I'll just, I'll hire bad people, because I'm in a rush, and so I'm always like, look, you've got to build both at the same time. You've got to hire people and you just you have to face that down and not be intimidated by it. But I think it always feels and you know, a lot of us as women entrepreneurs, we have anxiety. Being an entrepreneur is quite a terrifying thing a lot of the time, and that's what makes it fun, and that's why we love it. But I think sometimes, if we're used to being in control in order to manage our personal anxiety, it feels like this train that is like out of control, and it can't be slowed down, and the business is speeding up, and we're like, No, I'm not comfortable with this. And I think it's a process of separating out like, you the person, and you the business, and we will get to a point where, like, the business is actually a team of people. So in order for something to happen, it's not like you the person doing everything yourself. It is the business doing those things. And you could be on holiday, you could be like sitting with your feet up, drinking margaritas if you want to, whereas the business is working very hard.

So I think there are some of these kind of it's like a growing pain, and we have to know that that's all part of the process. But I think exactly what you're saying before. Leah, if you get more work than you can handle, then you say to people, right? We're going to be doing this work in q2 I'm available to start this in June, or whatever it might be. And I speak to women all the time who are terrified to say that, and I wonder if it is like a corporate hangover. But also, I think I've met people who, when they hear what I do. I remember someone said to me once a few years ago, like, Oh, I bet you have to, like, take every bit of work that comes your way. And I was a bit like, if you want to think that, that's fine with me, but I think, you know, when we're new in business, when we're new as consultants, and I think consultant consulting businesses can build up, actually, within a couple of years, they can be quite big and quite overwhelming in that time, and you haven't had time to do the personal work, to catch up with it yourself. So I think sometimes we can still be in that mindset of like, this is a new business. I need to say yes to everything. And it's it's starting to rewire some of that, and be like, calm down. You're the CEO. You are in control of this. You can say yes to things, I think, for women, saying no to anything that can feel very difficult, and it can feel very uncomfortable. And you know, there's all kinds of reasons, you know, within our family structures, within society, within corporate workplaces, and why that's the case, but it's learning. Actually you can, you can tell people when you will be available to work with them. That's actually something very common. Even in consulting, you don't have to bend over backwards. And I think it's part of like standing in your own authority, in your own power. If you're sought after and in demand, you're going to have to start like laying down some of these boundaries with your clients. Otherwise it can just it can send you around the bend

Leah Neaderthal 39:17

only. I mean being able to send to say no is a privilege. It's not a burden, right? It's, it's a privilege. It means that you've done some things, right? You know? It's you have a full pipeline. You can say no to things you are planned out so you know what you're going to do six months from now. You're instead of having to take on everything, because you have this, you have no pipeline. You have a scarcity mindset, and you're not charging enough, you are working with fewer clients that pay you more, and and you're in charge, right? And so I think that it's if you're saying no to people, you're doing something right. It's not that you're doing something wrong, and I think you're right. It is that. You know, from from the moment we were on the playground as little girls, we were, you know, we've learned lessons about what it means to say no or, you know, be liked, you know. Or like difficult. Don't be difficult. You have to be liked, you know. And setting boundaries and and women are certainly learning it in my program. I know they're learning it with you, too. And I think it's, I think that for as much conditioning as we had on that growing up, it will probably be a lifelong learning journey, you know, going forward, but, but it's really, it's an like I said you you're upgrading your problems, right exactly, and when you get to the point where you're making great you're making great money, you have a full pipeline. You're dealing with bandwidth issues. You know, success gives you choices, and you can choose how you how you adjust, and how you grow, or or how you set a boundary. And so it's really, it's it might be uncomfortable, but I promise, because I've worked on it, I know you have to, it gets a lot easier.

Jessica Fearnley 41:08

I still hate saying it sometimes, like it's so funny, isn't it, the things that like that it brings up for us. But I that's the thing. I do think that when you're past the initial six figure stage, all of these things about how to be a leader, how to lead your business. Well, if we haven't done the work ourselves, we can, we can create chaos in our own businesses. And you know, we have to have that self awareness. But something that I find endlessly fascinating is that I find with my clients, quite often, they have no idea how amazing they are, and they are, they have this, like, inner narrative. And, you know, we say don't read like, you can't read the label from inside the jar, but like, they have this inner narrative of, like, I'm kind of average, like, there's people who are better than me. It's a crowded marketplace, like, you're not that good. And then they, they get feedback sometimes from their clients, you know, who sometimes will be like crying, being like, you've changed my team so much. You've helped my organization so much, and they're almost a bit like, what like are you talking about me? And it's like, do you understand how exceptional you are? Do you understand, like, how gifted you are at what you do? Because that's really like, at the crux of a lot of this stuff. I think often we have all the wrong ideas about who we are and how we impact in the world, and what our skill set can actually mean for our clients. And it's, it's that process, I think, of like really stepping into that and, like I said, separating out, like you the person, and you the business, and making peace with some of these things about ourselves. I think you know, if you're a impactful woman in a corporate career.

You don't usually, maybe that's a bit strong, but I was gonna say you don't usually get given, like, a lot of encouragement to be, you know, more than like you you're already being quite often, as a woman in corporate you get told, like, Can you just be a bit less pleased? Can you? Can you stop, like, upsetting people or having opinions or like, can you? Can you just be a bit easier to get on with, whatever it might be? And I think that we, we take those messages to heart all too often, and it just it can end up with a situation where we're still correcting for problems that were never actually ours, because so often, like the feedback that we can receive in corporate it's actually something that belongs to the person who gave us the feedback. And it was never even true. It's like them being triggered by us. So, oh, there's, there's just so much to this whole thing of who, who am I as a person? How do I impact in the world? I just see time and time again, women are so much more, so much more than they think they are.

Leah Neaderthal 43:41

Yeah, oh, I wait. Say that. Say that again. What you just said around we're correcting for problems that weren't ours in the first place. Yes,

Jessica Fearnley 43:51

you know, we're kind of coming out of a meeting being like, oh my gosh, they told me that I'm I can come across as arrogant and like, what that can sometimes mean is that you were better than your line manager in that situation, they started to freak out that you're going to take their job, because, frankly, you deserve it. So instead of being like, Oh, hey, we should be looking at development opportunities for you. We should be helping you. They make you feel bad about yourself so that you don't trigger their insecurity, and then you internalize that and carry it with you for like, what 10 years feeling like, oh, it's me. Like, I'm arrogant. I like, upset people. I rub people up the wrong way. And it's like, that was never your thing, that never belonged to you, that was always about the other person doing what they did in that situation because of their own insecurity. It's insane.

Leah Neaderthal 44:38

Oh my gosh. Okay, so if you're listening to this, and you have that head trash that we talk about, right? Like I'm arrogant, or I was told that I can't do this, or whatever, I love this as just an intellectual exercise. Ask yourself, is this really a problem, or have you been correcting for somebody else's problem? Oh, I just love that. So Jessica, what are you working on? Days, and to fill us in, it's

Jessica Fearnley 45:03

funny, you should ask, because I am just finishing up at the moment, my first book, which has been a two year long project at this point, it's called too much, and to be honest, it's, it's about the thing that we were just saying. Like, you know that that feeling that we can have from, like our families sometimes, or like our corporate career, or just our life in general, like you are too much, you are too loud, you are too full of ideas, you're too full of energy. I have felt this my whole life, and it's fascinating, because I think it's not really been until I've become an entrepreneur myself, that I've been like, Oh my gosh. Other women all over the whole world feel like this too. Other women have this message kind of given to them throughout their whole life, you're too much. Please. Can you be less? Please? Can you like, fit in with other people more? Whereas, you know, as entrepreneurs, it's the perfect playground for us to 10 up to 11, and to like, make everything full color saturation, you know. And I think the things that we often need to be less of in corporate we need to be more of as entrepreneurs. So the book is like a real rallying call to women who also have been told consistently that they are too much. Can we just, can we agree that this is a really good thing, that the things about you that are too much are more about the place where you are spending your time and your energy, rather than you the person,

Leah Neaderthal 46:29

oh my gosh, that I love that, and I love that title, too. And you're right. I mean, I think some of the holding back, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, a lot of the holding back is that it as an entrepreneur is that you're playing small because being told that you're too much and it's the opposite of what you should be doing here, right? Yes, you know, really, I love what you that you said, it's the perfect playground for that. So two years, such a labor of love. So we will keep an eye out for when that comes out.

Jessica Fearnley 46:56

It will be very soon.

Leah Neaderthal 46:58

Awesome. Jessica, where can people find you?

Jessica Fearnley 47:01

So if you come and find me on LinkedIn, I create content on there as Leah does. I have a LinkedIn newsletter called The Seven figure consultant. I also have a podcast, also called the seven figure consultant podcast, and my website is jessicafernley.com Awesome.

Leah Neaderthal 47:19

Thank you so much for being here and sharing this and sharing this and having this conversation. I mean, let's continue it, and I know we will, because this is something that I know it's it's so dear to you, it's so dear to me. And we've come a long way in this, but we have a long way to go. So I think if we can, with the help of you guys listening, if we can raise all the ships here, I know that it will be a total

sea change, yeah, and

Jessica Fearnley 47:45

I know that like, Leah, you and me, like, we are here for women consultants. And it's, it's such a kind of central part of, like, the mission that we both have. And I'm so glad that I met you. I'm so glad that you have the mission that you do. And it's, it's just exciting, isn't it seeing this whole kind of group of women just really kind of rising up and like, becoming more fulfilled and creating more wealth for themselves as they lead these businesses that are just making them a ton of money. It's so it's so exciting to see women shaping that for themselves.

Leah Neaderthal 48:17

Yeah, and I'm sure if you feel the same as I do. It's such a privilege to help women do that. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you so much for being here, and we'll see you soon. What a great conversation with Jessica, and if anything she said resonated with you, please reach out to her and let her know. So I feel like there was so much juicy stuff in our conversation, and I want to pull out something that you can apply to your business. And it's this idea that I think underlies everything we've been talking about, which is that reaching new milestones or being you know, what we think of as successful is as much about your mind as it is about your money, because your business will grow to the level that your beliefs allow it to. And when you can shine a light on those beliefs and really understand if they're still serving you or maybe how they're playing out, and if you can rewrite those beliefs with ones that are serving you, then you can really unlock a new level as a business owner. I mean, we see this all the time in the academy, like just the other day, you know, one of our members was really struggling because she felt like it was rude to say the price of her work in a conversation, but it's costing her time, because she's spending all this time writing proposals, and she doesn't know whether clients can say yes to her fees or not. And it's costing her money, because when she does sit down and write this proposal, she's negotiating against herself and saying they'll never pay that and sort of dropping the price. But when she shined a light on this belief that it's rude to say the price, and she began to understand that it's not rude to talk about price, it's i.

Actually part of business, and it's actually kinder to say the price up front, because then, you know, the client doesn't fall in love with something that they can't afford. Then she was able to start saying her price in the conversation, and she overcame this huge hurdle in her business development. So what I want to leave you with, and what I want you to think about, is what's something that feels uncomfortable to you in your business development process? Maybe it's something about marketing your business or pricing or leading a sales process or following up anything. And I want you to ask yourself, what is it about that that feels uncomfortable? What is the belief that's behind that. And then I want you to picture the you who's already at that next level. What would she say to you about that and that you who's already at that next level, listen to her, because when you listen to her, you can become her. You.