Episode 64 · April 30, 2023
How to catch bigger fish, with Nora Shepard
With Nora Shepard
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In this episode
Nora Shepard came to me in 2018 as a growth manager at a three person agency who sold on the side. She's now head of business development at a company of about thirty with a second office opening, selling personal branding into organizations whose names you'd know. This one's about what changes when you go from small clients to big ones. A better website and a higher price don't do it, and we get into what does.
What you'll take away
- The agency went from three people to thirty, and the sales process changed more than the offer did. The packages are close to what they always were. Who says yes to them, and how, is the part that moved.
- Inside a company, the excitement and the process come apart. One person can be thrilled and it counts for nothing if they can't sign. Nora's number: you end up talking to about eight people in there, and every one of them wants something different.
- The step everyone wants to skip is the money one. Hers too, and she says she still has to slap her own hand. What she found is the opposite of the fear. Talking about money got her respect faster.
- She does about 20% of the talking on a first call. She researches beforehand and then hands it back: it's cool if you ramble, most people do, I'll pick up what's important. They laugh, they loosen up, and then they ramble.
- We both hate "what keeps you up at night." It's a lazy question, and it wants a level of intimacy nobody owes you on a first call. It's your job to uncover that, not their job to put it on a platter and serve it up to you.
In this conversation
The full transcript, in sections. Open any one to read it.
How Nora and I started working together
0:02
They don't owe you anything, and you do have to earn their trust and respect. And my goal on these calls is to be considered a trusted advisor. That's what I want to position myself as, not as someone who's selling to them, but someone who is here to help you find the best solution.
Forward. Welcome to the smart gets paid podcast with me. Leah Neaderthal, I help women land higher paying clients in their independent consulting businesses, but I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's so I taught myself how to do it, and I created the sales approach that I now share with my clients so they can feel more comfortable in the sales process. Get more of the right clients and get paid way more for every client contract. So whether your client contracts are $5,000 $100,000 or more, if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love and get paid more than you ever thought you could, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to rate, review and share. Hey there. Leah here. Thanks for tuning in. I hope that wherever you're listening to this, wherever you are right now. I hope you're having a great week, making some good progress on your business and taking some time for you. So a few episodes, in Episode 57 I talked to the woman who she and her co founder were struggling with how to bring their big agency experience to the smaller brands and the smaller clients that they were working with now. But I also talked to a lot of women who want to go in the opposite direction. The clients that they're working with are a certain size or a certain level of maturity or sophistication in the area that they work in, and they want to work with bigger companies, maybe more established companies. And let's face it, you know, companies with more money, they want to go from catching small fish to catching bigger fish, but they struggle with how to reach those potential clients and then how to get their work actually sold in because what they find is that to be successful getting these bigger fish, it's not just about having a more professional website or pricing your Work higher the sales process of getting their work sold in in these bigger fish is entirely different, and it just takes different skills and strategies. And so I wanted to invite onto the podcast someone who I worked with who made this shift successfully, and she's going to share with you how it's different and a few things she learned. So I'm really excited to share my conversation with Nora Shepherd. Nora is the Head of Business Development at a personal branding agency called simply be and I just have to tell you how we came to work together. So a few years ago, I coached simply B's founder Jessica Zweig on how to get more clients into the agency, and she killed it, and the company started growing in the type of clients they were getting, in the type of work they were doing. Pretty soon after that, something happened that often happens when companies reach a certain level, which is that Jessica wanted to bring in another team member to help her do business development, so that she could take some of that work off of her plate, and eventually have that person lead biz dev for the agency. That person was Nora, Nora shepherd, and so Jessica sent Nora to work with me in the program I was running at the time called signed. And I got to tell you, Nora took to it like a fish in water. She was such an enthusiastic student, and really leaned into learning and applying what she was learning in real time to the real sales processes that she was going through with her actual potential clients. And I have to say, she really she blossomed. Can I say that? I'm saying it she blossomed. I've said this to her before, and so now Jessica and the agency, armed with a team member who actually knew how to lead sales, the agency could not only get better at landing their core clients, but start to go after bigger clients, those bigger fish, and that's what they did, and now they're working with companies and organizations that are household names and doing personal branding for leaders at the highest levels in the company. And Nora has led that effort, and it's paid off in spades. Simply be has gone from a three person agency based in Chicago to a 30 person company that was just at the time that we recorded this, so it could be more people now, but a 30 person company with offices in Chicago and Nashville. They're amazing. And in fact, when I wanted to rebrand my business a few years ago, I went to simply be to do it. So I asked Nora to come on the podcast and talk with me about what it takes and what it's like when you start to sell to these bigger fish. And this actually isn't the first time we've talked about this. Nora also joined. Joined me in the academy, where she led an incredible session for our members about how to lead the sales process in a complex selling environment like the ones that you find in these bigger clients. She shared some of her secrets about how to talk about budget early on, even when your client has an allocated budget, how to find what we call the champion, which is a key role in the sales process. She shared her tips on how to help clients identify and really secure budget from other departments and so much more. There were so many good nuggets in this training. Nora's session was part of a module we did on navigating the jungle, essentially understanding what's going on on the client side, so that you can work with your clients and help them get your work sold in. Because when you're trying to get work sold in, there are a lot of things that you can and should be doing on your side, but we also have to understand what's going on on the client side. And so Nora's session was part of that module. If you're in the academy, you can find the recording of that session in the guide section of the portal on how to lead a complex sales process. So take a listen to my conversation with Nora Shepherd about how to start selling into bigger fish, and at the end, I'll come back and share a lesson you can apply to your business, and then hopefully someday soon, you'll partner with us to help you build your consulting business, and you'll come back on the podcast and share your story too. Enjoy, Nora. I'm so happy that you're here. Thanks for being here.
From growth manager to head of business development
6:26
My gosh, it feels like such a long journey to get here, like such a full circle moment. It's really cool.
It is, it is because when did we first get into each other's orbit?
Was it 2018 I think, yeah, I think it was.
I think that's when I first started working with Jess
Yes, and Jessica then had me sign up for your course, which she still says is the best five grand she ever invested in the business, which is very funny.
That is so funny. Yeah, I love
it makes me feel so good. You transformed it, yeah.
Well, let's, let's talk about that. Because I think that I mean, as I've been around your, you know, in the orbit of simply be and seeing how you guys have evolved. I mean, the evolution is so exciting, and that's sort of what I want to talk about here. And you've had, of course, not not just a front row seat, but you have been a key driver in that. So tell, tell the good people what you do at simply be,
well, I guess our boilerplate is at simply b. We transform executives and teams inside of companies into magnets to new opportunities and more revenue by way of executive personal branding. And it has been quite a ride. We just celebrated our six year anniversary. Actually, yay. Happy anniversary. Thank you so much. It's very exciting. It's been quite a journey.
And what does what is your role inside the company?
No, that tracks, so I'm no. So I'm one of the founding members alongside our CEO Jessica and our VP of Marketing, Alexander B Titus, and today I serve as our head of business development. So I oversee all new partnerships, all sale right now, my focus is on opening a second office in Nashville, so spearheading expansion into new markets. And, man, it's cool to get to be almost like the gateway of who comes into the agency. It's really, really fun.
Yeah, and what were you doing when we first started working together?
So I guess, because I started working with you, I think before I even was the head of accounts, so when you and I first started engaging, I mean, I guess now I can tell kind of like my story of how I even got into sales. Okay, cool. So when I met Jessica, I was a Content Manager at a political tech startup, I thought I wanted to be a writer after college, and got this job and realized not for me, and I love working with people, and long I'm making a long story way short, but wanted to work with people. Started to explore different career options that that could allow me to do that. And sales was obviously one of those, one of the possible paths, but I had yet to experience like sales as a service, or sales as value, like a value driven career. I remember my brother at the time was like, if you're interested in sales, just go get a job at Yelp and learn how to cold call. And I was like, that sounds absolutely soul crushing. That sounds horrible. So No, even though I don't really have an example of what I'm looking for, met Jessica, you know, and started writing for her as well. Started freelancing, and it kind of expanded into what the role is today. So I think when I met you, I was still technically growth Manager, which was kind of a catch all role I was doing, like anything, it was just me, Jessica and Alexa, like, you know, and a couple of other people. Like, titles were kind of meaningless at that time, but I was interested in sales. And Jessica was the only salesperson at the time, and introduced me to you. So I think when I met you, I was still growth manager, and I sold on the side, and then I managed up the accounts team and continued to manage on this like sell on the side. And now my now selling is finally my full time job.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know. And now for where you guys are and where you want to go. You do need somebody you know sort of focus on this. So let's talk about that, that evolution, what was going on in the business and in your client base before you really stepped into this role. Who were you selling to? What was the process like? Tell me how that went.
Who they used to sell to, and who they sell to now
10:39
Who we're selling to has been kind of the biggest evolution, like what our vision is, what our mission is, what matters to us, at the crux of what we're selling, that hasn't changed that much, like personal branding has always been what we sold, but when you and I first met, we were selling primarily to individual consultants, like mostly entrepreneurs, you know, coaches, lifestyle, that kind of person, and they're still in our orbit. We still love that person, but that was primarily our audience. And so I remember at that time like there were green flags that today would be red flags, almost of there were a lot of single call sales. A lot of we talk about what we sell and immediate I mean, I want to work with you today. If someone says I'm ready to work with you right now on the first call, that's actually a red flag that they probably aren't aren't quite ready, or they haven't engaged enough decision makers, like, they're really emotionally excited, but they haven't thought logistically yet. So it's been interesting that, like, the same behavior has means different things because of who we're speaking to now. So who we're speaking to now is is the corporate, the corporate executive, and helping the executive and entrepreneur elevate their brand and service of the organization. So it is, it is a different audience that we're going after now,
yeah, well, and is the work different as well? I mean, how are the engagements structured differently? Because you have this different audience,
not really. I mean, going back to actually, your kind of building blocks, right? Like you have these packages that you helped us put together, those packages back in the day of what these different offerings could look like, and the offerings are actually still very much the same. The product is, of course, has evolved. We've tried different things. We've tried different products, but the crux of it, of brand identity and brand strategy and brand execution, all of those have not changed that much. How we think about it has, has evolved.
I love that, all right. Well, so and so you're you went from the sort of consultant entrepreneur to companies or to leaders inside companies for whom the brand, the the brand identity, is in service of these, these bigger comfort companies. Can you say some of those? Just some examples
of there's one client in particular that we're working with now that is in the defense tech space. We've kind of also found this niche of male dominated fields, with companies that have prioritized women in their leadership positions, people of color, diversity, elevating multiple executives inside of an organization. So that's an example, I think, of the kinds of partnerships we're going after more and more.
Yeah, that's so exciting. So the conversation that you and I had recently that really told me, Oh my gosh, I need to get you on this podcast, is you spoke for the women in the academy. We were doing a module on the sales process, what we call navigating the jungle, the intricacies of the sales process, understanding what's going on in the client on the client side, so you can better navigate that and help your client sell in on your behalf. Because, as you and I both know, 90% of selling happens when you're not there. And so when, when we had that conversation, I I was like, Oh my God. I it was so clear to me that not only has your business evolved, but the sales process has really evolved with it, because you've gone from the, you know, the old client avatar to this new client avatar, and the new client avatar is much bigger companies. And so I wanted to ask you, because I think that, you know, a lot of the women I work with, sort of, and we were just talking about this before the call, like they might want to sell into bigger companies, right? They might want to sell in bigger engagements. But what they find a lot is that it's, it's sort of easy to sell into, easier to sell into these smaller, you know, your before clients, right when you when you do elevate your the clients that you're serving, the sales process really changes. And so I'd love to know from you, like, in what ways do you think the sales process changes that people might not be aware of?
Two journeys running at once, the emotional and the process
14:58
It's such a good question, and I was. Thinking about this, before this, before this call. I think it's so true. And I think the easiest way to explain, I think the main difference is by looking at the buyer's journey. When you're selling to individuals, the emotional buyer's journey and the process Buyer's Journey align. So if I got someone super excited about that was my that was my challenge, was to get someone excited and for them to understand what I do and when I'm selling into individuals, where they're the only decision maker, where really that they're the only decision maker, it's just them, right? They're they're doing it for them, and they're the ones paying it's aligned. Now, when you're selling into organizations, I really had to separate the emotional buyer's journey with the process buyer's journey. And every single person that I speak to has their own emotional buyer's journey. So that
was every person that you encounter in the sales process which might be your first point of contact, and it might be some of the other stakeholders that are brought in
an average of eight. I'm sure you know that stat, but it's an average of eight when you're selling into B to B Corporations, you speak to an average of eight individuals inside of that, which is crazy to think about. And so that's eight emotional buyers journeys with one corporate process, buyer's journey. And I didn't actually even know that, because I never had to think of them as separate journeys. And that separation that, like disentangling, has helped me from a framework perspective of like, every new person that I talked to, it doesn't matter if the person before was psyched, if they don't have the final decision making power, that is a really important part of it you can't skip any steps is the other really frustrating part about corporate selling, because you want to skip steps, you get excited. However, when you realize that you're selling into a system, you're not selling to a person, you realize that you really do have to disentangle that which empowers you in a different way, to ask different questions, because you're like, getting them excited about the product is step one. But I can't actually, it's not actually a solution, if it's not realistic, so I also have to ask these other questions. Yeah.
I mean, the type of information that you need is so different, and it's a reason why wanting the solution isn't enough, right, right? And it's also why, you know, what a lot of people do is they just, throughout the sales process, they just share more information, but more information doesn't even help if, if the process is the process can be complex. You know, it's that process piece that I think a lot of people don't quite understand either, either don't understand want to skip or get really frustrated by because it can be frustrating.
Yeah, it can be. And it's a lot of like slapping your own hand, of like you're skipping steps again. I constantly have to roll myself back, but at a certain point you just get burned. Enough times of seeing down the road the effects of not asking the hard questions earlier on that like, now I'm just, I'm gonna ask them anyway.
The step everyone wants to skip
18:10
Yeah, well, what? What are the steps that you think are easiest to want to skip?
The budget question. I think everyone hates that question, or just the budget conversation. Of like, when you are working selling into a corporate environment, you can't make promises as off the cuff or as quickly, or you can think on the fly of what the right solution is, because it's a lot more custom there are a lot more custom packages, and that is no longer the case. The the we have our packages set because we have a whole agency trained to deliver this particular kind of package. So now it's about, Do I even have the right solution for their problem? And so I say no a lot more as well, which is really uncomfortable, I think, for the salesperson, I realized they didn't actually answer a question. So I'm going to go back to that. What are the skips that people are most likely to skip the budget question, for sure, and I also think that people are, or I find that I am more likely to almost phone it in, or like, say, good enough to a loose budget or a loose problem statement, where They come in and they're like, I know I need to do this, and in the past, they would accept that as a good enough motivation, but that's actually not the right problem statement, like, what are we solving for? Not just emotionally, I want to do this, or I want to be a thought leader, because that's not a strong enough motivation to take you through a whole year with us, or to take you through this project?
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, this comes up a lot with some of the women I work with, because they'll say people can't articulate why they need me. They just need me, or they need this, or they need marketing help, or they need, you know, leadership development, or what have you. And. And I think on the surface, that does sound like a good problem, but it's not a problem. You know, if, if in your situation, it's like, well, the management tells me I should do it, or my direct reports say that I should be doing this, right, that may not be good enough, unless you attach it to an actual, an actual problem. And I'm guessing that that is what you were saying earlier, that's sort of a red flag, yes.
And I think this is also where to go back to, like the buyer's journeys. And that one framework actually has helped me a ton, because, and you can get really complicated and detailed as to, like creating a buyer's journey, but at its most basic, it's like everyone has different motivations, right? So I do need to understand the process. I need to understand the finance who's signing, who's who, who do I need to talk to but what we're talking about is the emotional buyer's journey. What is the pain point? And every single person will have their own motivation. So if I get someone and they say, Well, my management told me to do this, my line of questioning goes towards what would be a successful partnership for them? What do they care most about? What would make you really motivated to do this on a daily basis? If you're the thought leader, do you care about this? Like that changes the line of thinking, because exactly what you're saying. My management told me to pursue this is absolutely not a problem statement, and that person will most likely ghost you, unless you can figure out what makes them tick too, and then get on a call with the other person who who told them to to pursue this because they were also probably an important part of the decision making process.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think it's also about listening and not taking at face value. And I think you do have to have a certain wherewithal, a certain confidence, a certain Yeah, not trying to speed things along, right? Especially what you're talking about is conversations. You know, a lot of people, a lot of women, want to sort of speed the conversation along, to get through what they believe is like the real selling, which is a proposal, but, but staying here, right, not taking at face value, asking deeper questions, asking different questions, sticking with the question, asking the tough questions, because without that information, you you might think you're selling your you know the services, or your work or whatever, but they're not really a buyer. Or to your point about the process, you have no insight into the
process, right? How do you know what you're selling into?
Why you can't take a big company at face value
22:24
Well, and I'm curious what other what other ways is selling to big companies different than selling to small companies?
So you just said something of it's a lot more of like reading between the lines and like pushing them and feeling the confidence to know that if they are asking for this one thing, what they actually need is this different thing? I think there are just a ton more variables. When you're talking to a corporate company, I can take what the entrepreneur or the solopreneur is saying a little bit more at face value, where they say something to me, and I can probably know that they're telling the truth. People are more cagey with corporations. Different people at different levels have different levels of information, different interpretations of what the same pain point is, and a lot more happens behind the scenes. It's not let me talk to my consultant or let me talk to my husband or let me talk to my wife or let me talk to my financial advisor. It's let me get on the CEO's calendar who never approves anything, and I need to talk to him, because he has the ultimate decision making power, and he never has any time, and different priorities take precedent. So it's you just can't take things at face value as much when you're selling into large corporations, which is hard, because then it what is the solution? You experiment, you experiment, and you get burned. And you ask other people, what does this mean if they're not talking to me? Because it could actually mean, like 12 things. There could be 12 reasons why they aren't responding. And it's about reading between the lines to come up with what the best strategy is to re engage them. So it's a lot more like strategy and collaboration than there was before.
A knot of ropes, and the expense policy nobody mentioned
24:04
Yeah, I mean, oh my gosh, you said like, 18 things that I want to pull out here and in terms of threads, and it so tracks with what we talk about around this concept of navigating the jungle, because it is a jungle, right? And I you know, when you say people, you can't take it at face value. It's not because people, it's just this environment of distrust. It's that there's just you're selling into a system, and that system has people and personalities and legacy workarounds and infrastructure and policies. And, you know, it's like, the visual we use, and when I'm teaching this is, like, it's a big knot. Like, imagine, like, ropes just in this massive knot, and you can't just pull one, and the whole thing opens up for you. And there is so much more beneath the surface, because, because of all those factors, right? We were talking about this in the in an academy coaching call, and one of the women was struggling, because I. She is an expert in, you know, her field. She's worked with this company for a while, and they always really trusted her. And just whatever she said, they went with it, and they just kind of stopped doing that. And she was like, has something changed? Did I do something wrong? You know, are they going to fire me right? Are they going to let me go and and through talking with it and some of the questions we asked, What we discovered is that they actually changed one of their policies. They changed like an expense policy, and that was requiring them to get a lot more I don't know if it was backup or justification or business case or what have you, for every decision, and it wasn't about her, right, but this little policy shift changed how she conducted the work and how she sold in more work, right? Exactly. And I think, you know, the last thing that you said, that I want to just draw out for for the listeners, is just this, this one of the, what we have 12 principles of navigating the jungle, right? And one of them is, your client has a client. And I think that's, that's what you're talking about here, around your key contact might be on board, might have, you know, have the problem, won't be tasked with solving the problem, but they have a client, oftentimes, many clients, right? If you think about the people that they have to sell into, so, you know, convince that your solution will affect right? And so just this idea of, you know, it's not people you can't take it at face value, not because of, you know, just not because of anything for any one person, it's just that the constraints that your client has to work within are so different
and nuanced and different for every company, too,
and different for every company, which is why, you know, and this is just me on my soapbox, but it's why, like reading about how to sell on, you know, just like googling it and reading is is impossible, because it's useless. It's useless because, because every situation is slightly different. And frankly, I mean, these are the questions where, you know, we're, we're working through in the academy all the time, because it's not just a question of, like, why isn't somebody getting back to me? Or what should I say here? It's really, we have to dig around and see, well, what's happened up to this point, and talk to me about the people involved and whatever. And only then can can we say, Okay, well, this is what you should do in this unique situation, right?
100% Yeah, your your data, data in, as data out, like you only know as much as your questions. And I feel like the best sales tool is making other people feel heard and seen, because it happens so much more rarely than you think
totally well. So the question what you're talking about around asking these questions, right? And doing and really getting the information that you need to, number one, know whether they are a client for you or not, and number two, understand how the process works. That all happens in the discovery call, right? And I know that you've spent a lot of time really working that process. Talk to me about how you think about the discovery call and how it's worked for you.
How she runs a first call
28:07
Yeah, the discover there's a lot of parts of the sales process that I'm not great at. This. Discovery is one of my favorite parts of the of the sales process, because it's like your first time meeting them. You're both dating each other. It's actually, I think, kind of fun and the discovery call I have, I come in with no expectations. I come in with preparation, but no expectations as to how we might solve their problem, because I don't know what their problem is yet. So I will say on the Discovery call I do maybe 20% of the talking. That's like number one piece of advice is like talk so much less than you think you should ask way more questions than you think is necessary. And really continue to slap your hand every time you catch yourself making assumptions like Jeff, you know Jessica and I, when we're on sales calls together, it's so easy to jump to they need this, or they need x, or they need why. And so many times when I'm like, Okay, I catch myself, I slap my hand, go back to the line of questioning, something else comes to light, or their problem is actually, like three layers than what they thought the problem was, and that's what we're solving for. And then there's so much more bought in. So the discovery call is like, Listen way more than you think. You will do research ahead of time, because you don't the worst feeling when you hop on a call and that this is something else I'll say too when you're selling it to corporations like you, think of what you do all day long like you swim in it. I swim in personal branding, but for them, it's a 30 minute conversation that their boss might have made them take, or they're doing exploratory mode. Who knows what their motivations are? So coming and saying, I've done the research. I know who you are. I know what I can find online. I want to hear from you, like what Tell me about your journey from your perspective, so I do the research. Search. I come in and I know who they are, but I don't make any assumptions. I say, fill in the blanks for me. Talk to me about your journey. It's cool. If you ramble, most people do, I will pick up what's important. That's how I start every call. They always laugh, they always loosen up. They're like, okay, cool. I will ramble. And then they always do and that's where the nuggets lie, and it just immediately builds trust and breaks the ice and gives me so much more information than I would have if I came in hot and was like, I did this research. Here's my best assumption. Here's my guess of what you need, which is, I think, a mistake a lot of sales people make.
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I love that as an opener. What a just a beautiful, casual, welcoming, warm opening line. That's great.
It's worked well. It's worked well for me, feel free to steal it.
So what have been some results that you've seen in this process? I mean, where are you now?
I mean, we're doing really well. It's, I think we have, we have always had like, like, I said, strong mission, strong vision from the start. We believe you said this on the academy call, and I think this is true when I was giving some sort of story or advice, and you were like, You got to believe in what you're selling. Like, everything that Nora is sharing, everything I'm sharing right now is, like, I genuinely believe that is, it is an equal, pure mindset place to be, because I believe in what I'm selling. So it is an equal exchange of value, like your dollars allow us to help you, and I won't take it if I don't think that we can help you, and that level of confidence allows me to come at those calls a little bit differently and a little bit more grounded. So we're doing really well. I think we are constantly coming up with new ways to serve our community, to have multiple ways that you can engage with us. So that I'm focusing yes on on building up our corporate client, building up that kind of repertoire, that that book of business, if you will. But we also are having all of these other initiatives to serve as many people as we can. Really democratizing personal branding, because we only have so much capacity to take on a certain number of clients, but that doesn't mean that we don't want to help lots of other people. So we're doing really well. 2023 is off to a roaring start. Awesome. And how many people are you now? I lose track. I think like somewhere between like 20, anywhere between like 20 and 3035, on any given day. Yeah, it's, it's a full, fully running team.
So you went from three in 2018 to somewhere between 20 and 30 now and a new office.
Yeah. Yeah, amazing, amazing, I know. And Jessica's publishing her paperback today as well. Like, things, yeah, things are happening. I know that is, that is, I'll put a plug in to go check out the paperback. Oh.
I mean, her book B is incredible. I mean, anybody who's listening to my podcast has heard me talk about Jess, and episode 14 is actually, you know, on most of my calls, I am the one doing the coaching. And in Episode 14, which, if you haven't listened to it, you guys go check that out. It's I was really struggling with a major block and even getting this podcast up and running. And I called Jess, and I was like, Can you help me? And and she did, she really, you know, unblocked the block. And that's what you hear in Episode 14. It's, it's like, Jess is coaching me instead of me coaching other.
I haven't heard that. I'm definitely gonna go listen to that right after this. That's great.
Yeah, she's amazing. She's and anyway, you guys go check out the book b by Jessica Zweig. So I got to ask, what are two or three of the most important things you you learned from the system, you learned in in in working with me, that have really contributed to to your success
Peer mindset, and what it changed
33:52
here, peer mindset, hands down, that that one absolutely transformed everything for me, to be completely honest, I actually still reference it all the time, both in my mind and to my team of coming and exactly what I just talked about, right? Like believing that you are their equal. It's not deferential. It's not like I need your money. It's an abundance mindset. I believe in what we do. I believe in my solution. And so for the people who need us, we can really help them. And that also means that if I'm going to walk my walk like if similar to a friend, if a peer came and I didn't think that my solution was right for them, I'm going to tell them that too. And there might be other ways that we can help each other, share networks, share partnerships, but that that level of confidence and equality and like coming to that and not not being like I I would thank you for the opportunity to talk to you. It's like, this is an equal, equal exchange here, and that, I mean, completely changed the game, especially as the caliber of clients and prospects that I talked to continue. To increase, because I'm talking to some pretty heavy hitters now on a regular basis, and I have to constantly like I'm their equal. We are in this together, trying to find an a win, win, win solution that has, hands down, been the biggest contributor to any success I've been able to claim, to be completely honest,
your mindset, I love that. I love, I love hearing that. And you're right. I mean, you're not lucky to get on the call. You're not, you know, thank you for the opportunity. Just like grinds my gears, you know, it's you, you have something of value, and you're offering that value,
yeah, and it's not, it's who knows who's going to be a client any day? Or expanding my my brain, of like it's I actually have found that, like my solution, you giving me money right now is the only way that this can be an exchange is a super limiting approach as well. So expanding what a possible successful call can look like. And to me, getting the business is not always the best case scenario. Sometimes it's like figuring out, what does that equal exchange look like? What does a win, win, win solution look like, and that might be becoming a client, that might be sharing a podcast, that might be sharing networks, that might be you coming in as a freelancer can mean so many things, and who knows what's what, what? That will bring you some of my especially as you're working into corporations, like finding friendships inside of organizations with no pressure of buying right this second building champions, game changing like that is some of the best calls I've ever spent. The best 30 minutes I've ever spent has been finding champions inside of large organizations and forming friendships.
Oh my gosh, that is not only is it smart, I just love that because it feels so, so much more authentic than we think selling has to feel. And you know, it's the reason why a lot of times when we focus on the sales conversations and these discovery calls, you know, one of the things that I tell people to think about when they get on the call or before they get on the call, is just tell yourself, money is not going to happen on this
call right, and the goal is to get to the next step, not To get the deal right.
And if money doesn't, is not going to happen on this call, whether it's at the very beginning, or whether it's a call along the way, because you know, you're meeting with more stakeholders, or what have you, if money that's not going to happen on this call, then we can actually have a great call. We can have a great conversation, and that's where you can really start to open up for for really listening, for asking great questions for developing an actual relationship.
Best case and minimum case, before she picks up
37:44
Yeah, I think I actually that's something else. I forgot to say about the discovery call is I do go in with a best case scenario and a minimum case scenario, which also helps ground me. I'm like, best case scenario would be an introduction to their CRO minimum case scenario is really understanding the problem statement, like, if nothing else happens on this call, I need to understand their pain point. If they if I get a meeting, that is a bonus, that has helped ground me too. Because almost never is it win the deal, unless it's unless that really is the objective of that call. But it's probably going to be your fourth or fifth call at that point. So thinking about that of like, what is the ultimate goal realistically and what would really be a win can help refocus me on those calls?
Yeah, absolutely. What else is there? Anything else that you feel like has made the biggest impact?
Something else that is a quote from Leah that I also think of all the time. I'm pretty sure this is a quote from you, which is that they're, they're the expert in the problem. You're the expert in the solution. Didn't you say that? I quote that all the time too. I've actually put that in some of my internal presentations, because I think it's so true of you. When that has broken my mind open, of it sounds like you're coaching clients. Those in the Academy are also struggling with this. Of like, they think they don't know why they need us. No one knows why they need you. Like, people are coming because they have some sort of pain point, not because they know the solution. Like, if they knew the solution, they'd be using that already. So breaking your mind open, of, like, really seeking to understand, like, coming with a curious mindset, of, I just want to figure out what is, what's keeping you up at night, not in that. I don't ask that question because it's kind of a boring question.
I hate that question. Thank you. I'm so glad you said that question. That is such a it's a lazy question.
It's a lazy question because of like, professionally, personally, like, I don't know world hunger, you know what it is. It also insomnia keeps me up at
night, right? Actually, it assumes a level of like to truly answer that question, there needs to be a level of like. Intimacy, or you, you have to be that person. Has to be comfortable actually telling you. And when you, when you ask, literally, that question, and ask, especially, ask it really early. There they have, you haven't built a relationship. And so there are ways to get to that question and and read between the lines, as you were talking about, where it's your job to uncover that. It's not their job to put that on a platter and serve it up to you.
I love that. That is 100% true. Yeah, it's not their job to and I think that is something that you feel a lot is like, well, they don't owe you anything, even if it's an inbound lead, especially if it's a cold lead, which is probably a whole other conversation. But let's pretend you know they've they've raised their hand to learn more about you. They still don't owe you anything. They don't know you. They don't know you. I always make sure to ask that question, like, how much do you know about simply b before I share anything about us, because I don't want to talk at you. I want to only share information that's new and useful for you, because otherwise it feels like a pitch. And that is, I think you it helps depersonalize it if you remember that they don't owe you anything, and you do have to earn their trust and respect, and my goal on these calls is to be considered a trusted advisor. That's what I want to position myself as, not as someone who's selling to them, but someone who is here to help you find the best solution forward. That's what I'm here to help you do that could be us, that could not be us, right? I again, want to help you figure out what is the best way to solve this problem, and that helps depersonalize it, because I have to build upon that trust. So I start with, like, easy wins. Here's what I'm hearing you say. That is always the first piece of quote, unquote, like advice that I the best sales tool is getting someone to feel seen and heard. And so here's what I heard you just say, like, and what I'm picking up between the lines, am I understanding that correctly, and almost like, nine times out of 10 they're like, I didn't know that. That was what I said. I can't believe you just picked up on that in what I just rambled for 10 minutes about. But yes, that's exactly what it is, and that's how I gain their trust, not by coming in hot and saying, like, what keeps you up at night? It's like, that's like a journaling question that my therapist might give me, not someone on a sales call, like, just the audacity, you know. So, yeah, I hate that question, and just thinking of it more as like, how can I make small change, small movements to earn their trust?
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, okay, so if you're listening to this, just please pick up some some nugget that Nora shared here, and don't ask
what keeps them up. Just yeah, lazy question, yeah.
What sales changed in her outside of work
42:49
So we've talked about how our work together has changed the business, but I'd love to know from you, what changes have you seen in yourself?
Sales is has been the one of maybe the single except for maybe building this business. But I think sales has been the biggest confidence booster for me, because I feel like a superhero when I do it well like it feels so rewarding and fun to be like I navigated that jungle. Why it does feel like that when it, when you do a fully, a full sales cycle. So just the confidence that it's and it, and you see that spread of I can handle it. I can handle rejection. I can handle people saying no. I actually know that most no's have nothing to do with me. So that is also pretty cool to realize, and like just the confidence that it's been able to offer me, and seeing how that has expanded into my personal life, my theme for this year is actually renegotiating my relationships on my personal level, like figuring out my boundaries and what my relationship should look like, which I don't think that I would have ever gotten to that point if it hadn't been for this journey of sales and learning to ride those waves, baby. Because nothing feels better than selling. Nothing feels worse than a sale you were super hyped about that just fell through the cracks. Like that sucks too, and both extremes are just realities of the job. And so learning how to ride that wave has been another really key learning that any entrepreneur can probably relate to. But like is really a very critical and part of the journey, because if you expect it to be fun all the time, you're gonna feel sad all the time, most likely,
yeah, or you'll do what one of my Academy members calls breaking her own heart.
Yeah, their coo. Amy, she starts, she's amazing. But one time she said, like, early on, I was like, How do I because for the first several months of this job, it was a lot of like, how do I manage my emotional reactions to this? This is hard, like, I don't know how to not take this personally. Amy made a joke, but she was like, the secret to sales. Is developing a cold, black heart. She was kidding, and it's not true, but it does kind of feel like that of disentangling your own emotions. I don't give a prospect that power to affect my personal life anymore, which has made me, you know, able to make more authentic connections. Quite honestly, it's it's sales is really counterintuitive, in a way, like a lot of things that you're scared of that, oh, if I talk about money, I'll lose the relationship. If I talk about money, I actually have learned that I gained their respect a lot faster. So it's these, these counterintuitive I'm scared of something. Sales has also taught me how to, like lean into the fear, you know?
Oh, I love that, yes. And I just on that note about the cold, black heart. I mean,
she's like, I don't remember saying that, like you, you did.
No, you know what? It's obviously, it's never going to turn you into a horrible person. It's just an it sort of shines a light on this idea. And this is one of the other principles, is it's never about you. It's not about you. Now that's all it is, yeah, never. And once you get comfortable with this idea that it's never about you, then you can handle some of the the waves, you can handle some of the difficulties along the way, as they come up, and they will especially when you're selling to companies of the size that you're selling to,
yeah and and standing, standing with confidence in what you how other people are allowed to be wrong about you, I think, is another reminder that I remind myself like I know who I am. People are allowed to be wrong about me because of a preconceived notion that they have about the role. It has nothing to do with me. So how can I continue to operate with integrity and trust that the right people will come around and see that
absolutely well? And I mean, that's going to carry over so well into this year where you're negotiating and renegotiating all your relationships, right? There's so much in in running a business and learning how to get clients and learning how to sell that does trickle out in a positive way to other parts of your life, and that's also really exciting to see. What would you say to someone who's in the position that you were back when you started this journey, who has been tasked with this, because this is the business right to sort of get clients into the business, but who has never done it before and is staring at these these big names or these big companies, thinking, How could I possibly do that? What advice would you give her?
Well, this is such an annoying and annoying piece of advice, but like finding mentors like anyone who's in your academy is already miles ahead, because finding people who have done it before and are better at it than you is first and foremost. But I think at the end of the day, remembering that, yes, it's the jungle, yes, you're selling into a system, but you're selling to people that like people make the decisions. It's not Nike logo, it's the CEO of Nike. So that should actually relieve some of the pressure, because you know how to talk to people like you have conversations all the time. You have relationships in all areas of your life. That's all you're doing. You're building a different relationship, and you might have to build eight or 10 or five or however many inside of an organization, but that is just 10 people that you're going to have to talk to and figure out what they want and what they care about, and what a gift that you get to help them solve that problem. So I think remembering like you're not actually selling to the logo, you are still selling to people, first and foremost, that's it. That's all it is. That's all sales is, is selling, selling to people and figuring out what makes them tick. And what I love so much about sales is that it really is the intersection of people and process. And this, all of what we're talking about, everything that you teach your people is the process which should free you up to be more creative and have those relationships with people. And I think that would be, like, my biggest thing is just remembering that it's still people at the end of the day, like having relationships is always going to reign supreme, you know,
yeah, I love that. Once you know the process, it actually frees you up to be with the people that's really that's really beautiful. Well, Nora, thank you so much for being here. I so appreciate everything you shared. Where can people
find you? I'm most active on LinkedIn, so it's linkedin.com/the. Nora Shepherd, N, O, R, A, S, H, E, P, A, R, D, and if they want to learn more about simply b, they can check us out at www dot simply b agency.com. Awesome.
Thank you so much for being here. It's been such a pleasure, and cannot wait to see and we'll be cheering you on for everything you
do. Back at you. Leah, thanks for everything.
My take: you're selling into a system, and your client has a client
49:51
So obviously, there are so many directions that we can take this conversation and so many things that we could dive deeper into, but I want to just put. Out a few lessons that you can apply to your business, because Nora mentioned a few things that track with what I teach around navigating the jungle, really understanding what's going on in the client's world, so that you can actually help your clients sell you in. Or what we say is actually help clients sell you in. Say yes and bring you on. And there are 12 principles of navigating the jungle, but I just want to share two of them here. And we're talking about these in terms of selling into bigger fish. But the secret of this is that the principles of navigating the jungle are also very much at play when you're selling into small businesses or mid sized companies or nonprofits as well. So ready. Here they are, two of the 12 principles of navigating the jungle. Principle number one is you're selling into a system. So a lot of consultants, when you think about selling, you might think that you're selling into a company or a team or a person who's saying yes, but what you're really selling into is a system, and that system that you're selling into in these companies has people and work arounds and egos and legacy beliefs or behaviors. It has infrastructure that already exists. Think of it like one huge mess of ropes, like all knotted up, right? If you pull one of the ropes, what happens? It doesn't loosen everything, it actually tightens everything up. And this is a concept that I learned from Sharon drew Morgan in her book about sales, called dirty little secrets. And the subtitle of this book is so good, I just have to share it here. So it's dirty little secrets, why buyers can't buy and sellers can't sell, and what we can do about it. It's an excellent book. So when Nora was talking about the emotional buyer's journey and the process buyer's journey, that's what she was referring to, the process by which something gets sold in it means that just because a company or a team or a department, they might have the problem you solve, and they might very much want your solution, right? They want you, but there's still a process by which things have to get sold in. And we're not just talking about that. It has to go to legal or whatever. There's a process of getting people on board, getting stakeholders bought in. There's a process of communicating your value to people who may never have even met you before, but they're the ones who have to say yes. So what can you do with this? It takes doing great discovery to really understand not just the pains that clients are experiencing and why they want you to solve them, but understanding how things get sold in so that you can help the client navigate their own process, essentially navigate their own jungle. Nora also touched on principle number two, your client has a client. So you heard me mention this one in the conversation, and what it means is you might think that your client is the person that you're working with in the sales process, like your main contact, right? But we always need to be aware that your client has a client. Maybe they have a boss, or maybe they have a team that they need to get buy in from, or a board. Maybe they have to communicate up to other leaders or across to peers or even down to their direct reports. And similar to, you know what I mentioned in number one, we're not just talking about the people who, like literally need to process the contract right, like finance or procurement, although those people, you know they are important. What we're talking about is understanding whose opinion or whose influence or approval or who else's beliefs are at play on your client and at play in the sales process in ways that you might not have considered before, like even if you're selling to the CEO, you might think that the CEO is the ultimate decision maker, but the CEO has a client too many clients. Actually, the CEO's clients might be a board of directors or investors or trustees or shareholders or the executive team or the employees. So what that means for you is kind of two things. First, of course, we have to do great discovery to understand who those people are. But the more important thing I want you to take away from this concept that your client has a client, is to be compassionate, because your clients have a client too, and they have to sell you into that client, which can take a whole entire process in itself. And so help them do that by arming them with the language and the tools so they can sell you in because when you're selling into companies, 90% of selling happens when you're not there. So those are two of the 12 principles of navigating the jungle. And so I want to invite you to you know, the next time you're in a discovery call with a client, or you're in a sales process with a client, I want to encourage you to try to incorporate these two principles, because when you can do this, well, it makes the sales process easier, and you'll be able to. Catch bigger fish. I. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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