Helping clients do what’s necessary

Leah Neaderthal0:02

The problem now lives with you alone. We have to make this her problem, because if we make it her problem, then we can make it her solution. Welcome to the smart gets paid podcast with me. Leah Neaderthal, I help women land higher paying clients in their independent consulting businesses, but I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's. So I taught myself how to do it, and I created the sales approach that I now share with my clients so they can feel more comfortable in the sales process, get more of the right clients and get paid way more for every client contract. So whether your client contracts are $5,000 $100,000 or more, if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love, and get paid more than you ever thought you could, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to rate, review and share.

Leah Neaderthal1:06

Hey there. Thanks for joining me in this episode. I hope that wherever you are, wherever you are listening to this, I hope you're having a great week and making some good progress on your business and also taking some time for yourself. So it's been a really big week over here, because my son, who's three, started pre k3 and my daughter, who's now 11 weeks, is sleeping in six hour stretches. You guys, this is huge. So you know, my wife and I are getting more sleep. We have our son in school at least half days. And it feels like, you know, especially with just having a newborn, like, it feels like we're coming through the fog a little bit, you know. And it's funny, I remember when I was talking to a client of mine before my daughter was born, it was in like, the weeks right before she was set to arrive, and we were talking, and my client was like, oh, man, like, your life is about to turn into chaos. And I remember, like, you know, kind of chuckling, and be like, yeah, and then, but in my mind, I was thinking like, yeah, maybe that happens to other people, but that's not going to happen for us. Like our life isn't going to turn into chaos, right? Like, somehow, I don't know we had it together more, or we were special, or something, right? But guess what? I am not special. And for, you know, several weeks after she was born, we were in chaos. I mean, of course, first, there's just like a new baby in the house, right? You know, feeding every three hours, waking up all the time, just the addition of this, like new human in your life. And then, of course, also at that time, there's my son who had, like, so many big feelings, really big feelings about her and about us, and he just turned into a total terror, like, could not be calmed down, could not be it. Just It was awful. Seriously, there was a day that I cried, like, four times that day, and I remember actually asking his pediatrician about it, because I was like, this cannot be the same child who has been such an angel for almost three years at that time. Like that can't be right, right? And, you know, he was like, revenge peeing. And, you know, all these things, sorry to get to, like in the weeds. But this is, you know, very much my life right now, and I was worried about it, and so I asked the pediatrician, and he's like, Okay, I know it's hard. Your tendency is to clamp down or try to, I don't know, be more strict or whatever, because he's acting out so much. But he said, don't do anything for three months, like, I promise it will get better. And I remember thinking at the time like, oh my god, three months, that feels like forever. I don't know how I'm going to make it, but we have made it because my daughter is just about three months, and my son's behavior is getting back to normal, and he's going to school, so he'll have, you know, new people and new teachers and new experiences to help him grow and, you know, give him just things to do and new people to listen to. And I am so excited for him. He's really excited, and so I'm really excited for him. And so for us, it's like, okay, we've gotten through we've gotten through this period, and now we're into what feels like the next phase for our family. It's really, really exciting. So if you've been you know, maybe in the run up to school for your family, or any type of difficulty, I hope that you are either nearing the end or there's light at the end of the tunnel also for you. Okay, so let's get into the episode. I'm really, really excited for you to hear this one, because this is something I hear in various forms from a lot of women I coach. So in this episode, I'm talking to a client of mine who's struggling with one of her clients that she's working with. She's already sold in the work, right? It's a series of workshops, and as you're going to hear, she's gotten some not great feedback about it. And of. Course, she wants to make it better, but she's having a hard time getting her main contact back on the phone to find out how she and her team can improve for the next time. But when we zoom out on what this episode is really about, it's not about feedback, and it's not really about making the client happy, or it's not about getting people back on the phone. It's really this question that's more universal of as the consultants, how do we get the client to do something that they won't do or that they don't want to do? That's what we're going to be talking about today. So the woman I'm talking to is second in command at her company, and between her and the founder, she's the one who is really responsible for business development, and their company offers a really unique set of leadership and communication workshops to companies that are mid size all the way up to the fortune 500 so I'm so excited for you to hear a little bit about the scenario and how We can reframe it to help my client move forward, and, in turn, help her client get the best results. So I want to send a huge thank you to this client for allowing me to share this conversation with you. Take a listen, and at the end, I'll come back and share a lesson that you can apply to your business.

Leah Neaderthal6:20

Do you have an actual sales process? I'm talking about not a general sense of what you should be doing, but a real process where you know exactly what step comes next, who to follow up with, and when, and you can see at a glance where every potential client stands, if the answer is no, or if yours feels clunky, or you're reinventing the wheel, every single time I made something for you. It's called roadmap to clients. It's a free 20 minute video course, and in it, you'll map out your customized sales process step by step, from the very first contact with a potential client all the way to a signed proposal. It's the same foundational process we use with every Academy member, and it's completely free. Go to smart gets paid.com/roadmap to get started.

Leah Neaderthal7:06

Well, it's always fun to talk to you. What's what's up? How have you been?

Academy member7:11

We've been really busy, which is like such a great problem to have nice and I initially, I think I put in the, like, the notes for this call that I wanted to talk about, like sharing a client story on a call and how to weave that in. But I actually have kind of more of a pressing situation that I would love. We would love to get your input on it. Yeah, let's do it. The the context is, we have a six event engagement contract out with a client, and we've done one of them so far. They're scheduled for the entire year, so we have five more. And she sent an email after the first one that shared that essentially it didn't land as like it didn't quite land, is what she said. If we're going to move forward with the five additional sessions we'll need to tighten up to connect this like, Do you have any ideas? And so I responded to that, trying to get her on the phone so we could talk through our ideas. And she ended up kind of setting me up to talk to her employee. So he loved it, and it was great talking to him, but he's not the decision maker. So then we sent her our thoughts after we had this call, and like, here's how we're gonna, you know, work to fix this. And her response was sharing, you know, like, this is a brand new L and D program at this company. So this is something that we've done for the first time. I'm just going to read her last few sentences verbatim. I'm hesitant to move forward with these low scores. And curious, if scores are low, again, less than 70% would you be willing to give us a discount on the June session? This is the most expensive program in our offerings, and given the current environment, we have a lot of pressure to make sure our money is being invested wisely. So when she says discount on the June event, that's the second session that we're going to do. So she kind of, she's asking for an after the fact discount if it doesn't go as well as she wants it to. And I just, I responded again, trying to get her on the phone, saying, like we want to talk through this as soon as possible. And I just didn't address the discount question, because I feel like that's something we can talk about in person, and we're not going to do that. But I'm just wondering if you have I would love to hear your thoughts on how to move forward with this situation. Did that make sense?

Leah Neaderthal9:38

Yeah, no. It definitely makes sense. Wow. Okay, so give me it. So this is the first time they're doing something like this. To what do you have any insight into? Well, tell me about like your the process that you went through with them to prep, yeah.

Academy member9:56

So we had a couple of sales calls, and it was very. Clear, based on the objectives that she shared, that it would be, it's our workshop, and I explained the process to her and what the customization looks like. It's not like I explained to her that it's not a matter of just working with her to come up with, like, completely new content. It's just tweaking it so that it fits in with her team's needs, which based on what she shared. It's, it's really easy to draw that connection. And there's, there's like a consult call that our facilitator has with the client beforehand, but she actually set that up with her employee again and our facilitator so he didn't, our facilitator didn't get to talk to her directly, and so I haven't been able to, like, talk to her on the phone in months. It's just been communicating with her employee or email. So it's, it's hard to, it's really hard to help her out, like it's, I want to understand exactly what she needs, but if she's not willing to have a phone call, then it's hard to make sure that what we're going to do fits in with what she needs.

Leah Neaderthal11:09

Totally, totally. And I already have some thoughts for you. Do you have any insight into how they rolled this out, or how what communications happened inside of the company before the workshop, yeah.

Academy member11:22

So it's, it's a completely new program that they launched. And here's the other thing, She's new. This is her, she's like, she started in January. So I connected with her right around the time that she started. So I get that this is, like, really high stakes for her, and it's a new learning and development is a new function there completely. They basically have their employees opt in for professional development credits to do these programs. So it's not a specific team that we're working with. It is whoever is interested in the topic, and they share a little overview of what the topic is, and then from there, we do the workshop. So I don't know exactly what their internal communications have been like, but we've offered to, you know, write up a quick we already have, like communications that they can share that outline what we're going to do in the workshop, but if they share it or not, you know, that's beyond my control.

Leah Neaderthal12:16

Yeah, well, and I mean, knowing that this is something that people have actually actively opted into, you know, it's not like this is being forced upon them, okay. Well, I have so many thoughts. I This woman is really bad at giving feedback. Apparently, you know, I didn't like it, or I've heard that people don't like it, or whatever, the scores show that people didn't like it, you know, as you know, does not give you anything to go on, right? And no way to make it better. You know. Imagine if you like, ate a dish and you're like, I don't like it, send me another one, right? Like, but also, what's really sort of crappy is she's like, I don't like it. Let's do it anyway. Can I have a discount? Yeah? Like, I mean, and your your answer is exactly what I was gonna say, which is, no, that's not how this works. You know, on for so many reasons. I mean, you don't get a retroactive discount if people don't like it, and if you don't like it, we're gonna make it better, yeah? And if we're not gonna make it better, then, you know, we shouldn't be working together, so I don't know how what are you feeling right now? Like, what, what's the help you need right now? Like, because I could, I could rant about this with you all day, but like, what's the help that would what do you really need in this moment?

Academy member13:38

Yeah, well, from the mindset perspective, just to give you context when I when I've gotten these emails this has all happened in the past week or so. My initial response is just like, I don't like, it's probably a poor attitude, but I really am frustrated by it that I kind of just wish she would just cancel it now if she's going to be so, yeah, like you said, not give enough feedback for us to fix it like kind of setting us up to fail again. And the thing is, with the contract we have, as long as the next event is over 30 days away, they can cancel it anytime without an issue, and if they gave us enough warning that that would be okay, so she could do that after the second one. And so it's, it's weird that she, I was really offended that she asked for that retroactive discount, and just it really put a sour taste in my mouth. So I'm trying to reframe it and just focus on the immediate next workshop and figure out how to get a whole I guess, how to get a hold of her, and if I can't get a hold of her on the phone, how to make sure that we ask the right questions so that we can do the next workshop to the best of our abilities. And I'm just thinking about this one in June. I'm not thinking beyond that for the next

Leah Neaderthal14:56

four, right, right? Well. I guess another question I have is, have you had a chance to see the scores, or they were just reported to you?

Academy member15:06

She just gave us a few numbers.

Leah Neaderthal15:09

And do is this? Is this an assessment or a survey that you guys write, or they write?

Academy member15:15

This is from their survey. We have one. We didn't get a lot of responses, and she's asked, since they have one internally, if we could remove it for the next one, which we totally can, but we ask to actually see what their scores say, right?

Leah Neaderthal15:29

And I'm wondering if it was like just quantitative feedback or qualitative as well, right? So, okay, this sucks. And, well, I think, you know, and I think the worst part about this is, all you're doing is getting really terrible communication, right? So, I mean, of course, the natural thing is to, like, spiral out and be like, you know, what? What can we even do here? How can we make this right? We've done something wrong. This is, you know, this is difficult. This is not how you want to work, right?

Academy member16:02

And I did, don't worry, I did spiral.

Leah Neaderthal16:04

Oh, of course, I know you, I mean, and I know what I would do too, like you just Spiral out. And I'm just remembering that you told me that they didn't even give you access to, you know, either her or the team to even get the input to make this great, right? To make this the workshops great. So this is not, I kind of agree, that you weren't set up to succeed. So here's just a way to maybe think about this. So right now, you know, she's giving you negative feedback with no context, right? And no way to make it better, and she's, you know, not, she won't get on the phone with you or whatever, and you're over here on your side being like, we have this workshop coming up. We're, you know, we're coming up like, we're coming up on the deadline. We want to make this great. How can we make this better? And like, right now, all the pain lives with you, right? Like, to make it better, or to solve the problem, or whatever, right, right, you know. And of course, like, you're going to do your best, you're going to, you're going to, like, try everything you've asked her twice, to jump on the phone, right? What we need to do is to shift some of the pain to her. And I don't, I'm not saying, like, of course, no physical pain, right? But like, we, we have to, sort of, the problem now lives with you alone, we have to make this her problem, because if we make it her problem, then we can make it her solution, right? It's the difference between saying, like, you know, we're over here trying to make this so much better, please help us, versus saying, you know, this is not the way we operate. Certain things weren't in place before. We're not you know, in that, in that you didn't get a chance to get any input, to customize this workshop, we have no way to make this a more effective program for you, because we don't have access to you. And the person that we talked to actually give us great feedback, yeah, in the absence of a, you know, a live conversation to get your feedback and see the scores and talk to participants who weren't happy, so that we can make it better, we are unable to move forward. You know, we are still within the window of our cancelation contract. I mean, if they're not in the window, you could say we were happy to extend the window, because our commitment as a company is to make this, you know, to make every engagement an incredible experience. And we're not, we don't, you know, we're not able to get the tools from your from your side to do that. So maybe, perhaps we just, it may be the best to cancel the remainder of the sessions, right? Because here's what this does, if what's what you're saying is true about her and you know what she needs to accomplish in this short time, or whatever you know, think about, remember how we talked about BATNA right, best alternative to negotiated agreement, right? Like she, it may be the case that she needs to make a splash quickly. She needs to establish herself. She needs to succeed at something, right. And if this program fails, then the the best alternative to you guys finding some type of agreement here is that this program is not a success in her company, right? Or the first thing, or maybe an early thing that she did isn't a success. And of course, she'll never be like, Oh, this is all my fault, right? She'll probably blame it on you guys, right? But it doesn't change the fact that, like, it does not set her up for success in what she needs, right, right? So we're definitely we're not trying to, like, make her look bad, right? What we're trying to do is actually make her look good, and you need. Information to do that. Does that make sense?

Academy member20:03

Yeah, it makes complete sense.

Leah Neaderthal20:06

So I think that's the mindset shift here, because I know how much you want to make this work, right? I know how much you want to make this a success. You guys always get amazing feedback from the work you do. And of course, you, you know, over deliver, right? But you cannot force people to help themselves, yeah, what you can do is take it from being all your problem to make it a little bit her problem too. Okay. What? How does that land with you?

Academy member20:37

No, I mean, I really, I really liked what you said, because I'm in this place where I don't really know, like, I truly didn't know what, what to do next, because you're right. Like, if I can't get a hold of her, we it's not going to be it's not going to go well, it's going to be the exact same feedback as we got before. And I'm wondering, with what you said, if is that something that I should like, I have her phone number. It's just that seems like kind of an out of the blue thing to call about and have that discussion, but should I try and give her a call that's not scheduled, or should I continue with the written communication? It's the next step for that's like more logistical question, but I'm just curious what you think.

Leah Neaderthal21:18

Yeah, have you spoken to her on the phone before? I mean, you must have, right, because you've had these details. Yeah. I mean, listen, it couldn't hurt to pick up the phone and try to have the first conversation with with her, right, which is, we love to get feedback. You know, you wouldn't like come out of the gate on the phone with this right that we just sketched out here, like we you'd want to have the real conversation, or schedule a real conversation, right? While you have her live. And I think also just one quick note on that, like she, you know, you need just more more than her or more than one employee in that conversation, right? Yeah, so. But anyway, you know, schedule that conversation with the people who should be involved as you direct, right? Because, again, you're the ones trying to make this an incredible experience for her and for her people, right? And then if, if she doesn't pick up, you try. You know, you try once more she doesn't pick up, it's you still, or if she picks up and is still unwilling to have the conversation with you, then you know, you have a, it's not even like an escalation path. It's like you have a path that's right for you to make, to make this project successful, right?

Academy member22:33

Yeah, okay, that that's really helpful, because I've, but I've been keeping track of the pipeline, and it's, it looks so much better than it did before, and we're doing so well that I'm trying to have like, this attitude, like, I want this to go well, but I also I just don't think this is like, how we should be treated. So if it doesn't work out, like, we'll be fine. So I'm figuring out how to not sound like I'm apathetic to the situation, but it is just I'm not enjoying how we're communicating with her, so I'm figuring out, like, how to not bring that into my conversations with her too.

Leah Neaderthal23:08

Yeah, no, I totally get that. I mean, I think that the, you know, shifting it from, you know, you don't want to, like, go off of ego, right? And of course, that's super hard, because we all have an ego, right? And we want to do a good job. So, so shifting it from we shouldn't be treated this way to I can't make you successful, is really the shift here. Love that, okay? And the fact that you have a full pipeline, and you guys are doing great if you can afford to let this one go, then it's, it's really her decision whether she wants this to succeed in the company or not.

Academy member23:49

Yeah. I mean, of course, I don't, I don't want to lose business. But yeah, I think, like, we'll be fine if this ends up ending after one more session, or even right now, or even right now,

Leah Neaderthal24:01

exactly, exactly, what do you, you know, what do you like about this? What do you what feels good about it?

Academy member24:07

I mean, I love what you said about shifting some of the pain to her, because I do think it's so easy to carry it like one sided as the vendor. But you're right, if we're doing all that we can think to do, to get in touch with her, to make it right, that it some of the onus is absolutely on her to take some steps. And I think that shift is I hadn't been thinking about it that way. I've just been thinking about like, how can I get in touch with her? But I think I could be stronger in my communication and saying, like, we really need to figure this out, or figure out what the next step is, because we want to make sure that this the success, and we don't have the tools to do that right now,

Leah Neaderthal24:49

yeah, and I think continuing to really, you know, everything you write, put it, you know, write it down, but then put it through the lens of, or the filter of, how is this? How am I putting it in terms that benefit her? Right? In order to to make this a success, success for you, we need these things. It has to, it has to be positioned for her benefit, because it is for her benefit.

Academy member25:16

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

Leah Neaderthal25:19

Yeah. All right, so what's your next move?

Academy member25:23

I I'm such a visual person, I think I'm going to I was typing some notes on what you were saying, and I know this is recorded, but I think I'm just going to type out my thoughts, and then I think I just want to give her a call and see if I reach her, and if I do, then see if we can schedule a conversation and see if we can get anyone from the workshop in there. So I think just giving getting a call with her so that I can get a call with her is the next step.

Leah Neaderthal25:52

Yeah, yeah, totally. And listen, if you do get to the point where you're drafting this email, you know you can come into the academy slack and post it in the feedback forum, and if you want, if you want feedback for it, we'll put some eyes on it and let you know if there's changes or if it's good to go.

Academy member26:10

Yeah, okay, Thanks for the reminder. Yeah. Thank you. Leah, this is really helpful. Yeah, of

Leah Neaderthal26:14

course. I'm so glad.

Leah Neaderthal26:19

All right, so I want to send a huge thank you again to my client for allowing me to share this with you. So when you take a step back from this call outside of like the particulars the things about her unique situation, this really is a universal issue that most women will face in their business at some point, which is, how do I get my client to do something that they don't want to do, or won't do, or are delaying doing. And actually the most common example I hear is that my client's late in paying me for work I've already done, right and we still have work to do to finish this project, and they still won't pay me. We actually just saw that in one of our weekly coaching calls in the academy. One of my students was working with a client, and they were kind of nearing the end of their scope, and she wanted to get paid right as you do, but the payment was dependent on finishing a deliverable, and the client wouldn't get back to her with feedback on the deliverable, which meant that the deliverable was like never finished, and my student couldn't get paid. And it's really this variation on a theme, right? How do you get somebody to do something they don't want to do? And it's so frustrating, right? For all the reasons that you heard me talk about with my client, because you want to do a good job, you want to work in your integrity, you want to solve the problems that your clients hired you to do. And you know, of course, you want to get paid for the value that you're bringing to your clients. And you just can't, sadly, reach through the zoom or reach through the computer and just like, make the client do what you want. And it feels like you just have no power at all, right? And the reason it feels like you have no power is because you're the only one who feels the pain, and so you're the only one for whom this is a problem. But the truth is, and what I hope you got from this episode, is you do have more power, and the way that you reclaim your power is by making this issue, which is only a problem for you, and also making it your client's problem. Because, listen, clients are going to client right? And clients probably are not as concerned as you are about your need to do a good job or even your need to get paid, but they will be concerned about how it might affect them. So we just need to bring them back into the working relationship, where one of you is not working for the other, where you're working together, right? It's just a way of resetting the relationship. So what I want you to take away from this episode is take this issue from being only your problem and make it the client's problem also. And just as a side note, the woman in the academy who I was just mentioning, whose client wouldn't get back to her with feedback on that deliverable, you know, so she couldn't deliver the final piece and then get paid. In our coaching call that week, we talked through how to make it the client's problem, and I recommended that she withhold the final deliverable until she received payment. And in the course of our conversation, that felt weird. It's actually really hard sometimes to say no to a client, especially when you've said yes the whole time, and you really are in this position where you kind of have to put your foot down. But she did it, and a few days later, she posted this update in the academy slack. She said update on my troubling client situation from last week, and in parentheses, she added she was dodging a date for deliverable feedback and I worried I wouldn't get paid. Client replied at 6pm on deadline for feedback with gratitude for the report, and asked for my invoice. She paid in full, and I've given her the final work so relieved to call. Close this one out. So here's the thing. I know it feels hard, and, you know, dare I say bitchy, right to assert yourself in this way, but all we're doing is resetting the dynamic, bringing the client back into the working relationship with you, and teaching clients how to think about you and how to treat you, because your job is to teach your client through your actions, that you're not working for them, you're working with them, and there needs to be a mutual respect and understanding. It'll make you a better partner to your clients, and you deserve it. Hey, everything we're talking about in this episode is part of the system women like you are learning in the academy. In the Academy, we help women consultants install the two systems every B to B consultant needs a marketing system to consistently attract the right clients and a sales system to lead a sales process to a yes and get paid more for every contract. So even if you've only gotten clients through referrals or word of mouth in the academy, you'll learn how to attract and sign clients

Leah Neaderthal31:03

outside your network, how to lead

Leah Neaderthal31:04

a sales process with confidence, and how to get paid for your value, not your time. And there's no cold calling or cold emailing involved, no changing your services or making a course, and you won't use any pushy sales tactics. That's just not our vibe. So if you like what you've heard here, the academy may be your right next step to learn how you can get these two systems in your consulting business and make progress

Leah Neaderthal31:26

faster and with fewer roadblocks.

Leah Neaderthal31:29

Head to smart gets paid.com/academy and apply, and we can chat

Leah Neaderthal31:32

about next steps. All right, see you over there. You Transcribed by https://otter.ai