Episode 79 · December 10, 2023
What to do if the client dynamic feels off
Listen and subscribe
In this episode
When I was dating, my biggest red flag was smoking. Apparently there are beige flags now too, which are the quirky ones that aren't a problem, and I'm told dad jokes count. This call is about actual red flags. My client runs a boutique PR agency and has a potential client where the two partners want completely different things: one sees the value, one needs convincing, one wants a three-year plan, one likes to try things and adjust. Those differences are showing up in the sales process. At the end I explain why your client always has a client, even when you're talking to the CEO.
What you'll take away
- Put what you've already spent in a box, then ask the question. Rounds of proposals and some free work create investment bias. If you met them today, would you be excited?
- Her own answer, out loud: "are you going to be a pain?" Beautiful case study, client who doesn't know what they want. Both true at once.
- A dynamic that's visible on day one won't surprise you later. People and dynamics reveal themselves six months in. This one showed up in the first conversation.
- You set the terms, and you frame them as their benefit. Here's what we'd need in place to do our best work for you. They can say yes or no, and either answer is information.
- They may not be ready to work with you yet, and saying so builds trust. There's a decision they have to make before the one about hiring you.
In this conversation
The full transcript, in sections. Open any one to read it.
"We can't be surprised if it becomes a nightmare down the road"
0:02
We don't ever quite know how our client relationship is going to go once you really get into it, people can reveal themselves, or dynamics can reveal themselves, if the dynamic is also like right here, front and center on day one, we can't be surprised if it becomes a total nightmare down the road. Welcome, to the smart gets paid podcast with me. Leah niederthal, I help women land higher paying clients in their independent consulting businesses, but I've never been a salesperson. My background is in corporate marketing, and when I started my first consulting business, I learned pretty quickly that it's about 1000 times harder to sell your own stuff than it is to sell someone else's. So I taught myself how to do it, and I created the sales approach that I now share with my clients so they can feel more comfortable in the sales process. Get more of the right clients and get paid way more for every client contract. So whether your client contracts are $5,000 $100,000 or more, if you want to work with more of the clients you love, do more of the work you love, and get paid more than you ever thought you could, then you're in the right place. Let's do it together. Thanks for tuning in, and don't forget to rate, review and share. Hey there, Leah here, and thanks for tuning in. I hope that wherever you're listening to this, wherever you are right now, you're having a great week, making some good progress in your business and taking some time for you. So back when I was dating, there were a lot of things that I would consider red flags with the women and before that, the men that I dated, but the biggest red flag for me was always smoking, even casual smoking. I've never been a smoker, I mean, outside of, like, trying it a few times in high school, and then my parents, like, found my cigarettes and my nightstand, and I was grounded, and I had to get my driver's license laid and and that was the end of smoking for me. But like, smoking dating someone who smokes even casually, I couldn't do it. It was just such a big red flag for me. And now, you know, kids these days, they have not just red flags, but beige flags. Have you heard of this? If red flags are like warning signs of, you know, bad things, then beige flags are like things that are sort of odd or quirky. But it's not like danger zone. It's just like interesting, weird things, like, if a red flag in dating is that someone's a pathological liar, then a beige flag would be like, somebody just tells dad jokes all the time, and, like, cracks themselves up, right? It's like quirky, but not reason to be concerned. But a red flag, I mean, that's obviously something to pay attention to. And in this episode, I'm talking to a client for whom those red flags are getting a little redder. So the women you're going to hear me talk to today run a boutique PR agency, and they have this potential client that they've been talking to for a while, they've gone through several rounds of proposals with them, but my clients are feeling like the dynamic that's going on with the client, like inside the client, between the two partners at the client is raising a few red flags. So for example, one of the partners really sees the value in PR, and the other one needs to be convinced a little bit more. One of the partners wants a long term step by step plan, and the other one likes to try things, see how it goes, and refine from there. One of the partners is the creative mind in the business, and the other one holds the purse strings. And as these differences start showing up in the sales process and in the dynamic between the two partners, my clients are wondering, what do we do about this potential client? And the partners of the company are a husband and wife team, but this same dynamic can exist and play out in any pairing or group of people inside a company. So if you've ever had a client where the people that you were working with maybe weren't all totally on the same page, or if the dynamic inside the client was spilling over into your work, I think you'll find a lot of helpful information in this conversation. I want to send a huge thank you to this client for allowing me to share this conversation with you. Take a listen, and at the end, I'll come back and share a couple lessons that you can apply to your business. So you might have noticed that with the economy being as it is, things feel a little shaky. Referrals are slowing down, budgets are getting cut, and clients who you thought would say yes, are saying no or not right now. And here's the thing, in this economy, you can't run your business by waiting for referrals. Clients just aren't going to swim into your net. You have to be intentional. That's why the best way to protect your business today and for the future is to have the two systems that every consulting business needs, a marketing system to bring the right clients to you and fill your pipeline and a sale. System to help clients say yes and get you paid more. But it's not just about getting clients. It's about security and stability and making your business sustainable no matter what's happening out there, smart women are doing this right now, even in this economy, they're winning their biggest contracts, filling their pipelines, and their businesses are growing, which lets them do things like build up six months of family savings a lot sooner than they had planned, or go from having one to two months of revenue booked to having eight to 10 months of revenue booked, or getting to the place where you're able to pick and choose your clients and say no to the ones that aren't perfect. These are real results from women in the academy, because this is what we do inside the Academy, we help you build the marketing and sales systems that make your business and your revenue more stable, more secure and more sustainable. So if you've been in business for at least two years, if you made at least 120k last year, and if you want your business to feel secure no matter what's happening in the economy, join us. Apply today. It's marketspay.com/academy, we get started on Monday, February 9, because you can't control the economy, but you can control what you do about it. Let's talk about let's just check in. Yeah, you guys have been, at least the way it looks in the slack you guys have been doing great. So fill me in on what happens and where you still need a little support.
Two new clients, and one problem she wants to bring
6:28
Yeah, we signed new, two new clients last week. Yeah, I literally got feedback on a proposal yesterday that was like, this is perfect, so it's going what's going really well.
I want to just talk to me about when you and I first talked, you were so worried about what the fall was going to be. How are you feeling now
about that? Yeah, I feel hopeful. I feel equipped with the
tools to we've never done business development. We've never tried at business development. And so now that I'm like, Oh, we have this whole new skill set that, not only I have, but like, we're bringing on board to help with it, it's like, all of us can be we can thrive in this area. So we're good. We're like, we're rocking and rolling. It's awesome. Yeah, it's good. It feels really good.
So how can we use this time? How can we make this a really valuable call
The discovery call that turned into couples therapy
7:24
for you? Yeah, I have one particular prospect challenge I wanted to bring to you. So we started conversations with this interior design and build firm this couple. It's a husband and wife. They are super mediagenic, like, like, I think they could have like, their own Netflix HDT. Like, they're just, like that type. They're very charismatic. They're really good at what they do. Before I met you, pre Leah, we went circles and circles and circles with them on proposals. I even did, I'm like, embarrassed to say this. I like, even did some, like, free work for them, it was like a pretty easy lift for me. I got them in the Washington Post. That's like a free for
free, I know, yeah,
no, I know. So, long story short, they went silent because they were looking to take on some private equity. So they went dormant. And then I did a shoulder tap to them, like, two weeks ago, and they got back to me, and they're like, oh my gosh, this is, like the best timing, because we were, like, literally revisiting, doing public relations. And I went into the discovery call, being like, Okay, I'm going to be business. It turned into a therapy session for them, like a couples therapy session. It was like, she is very much, let's just start and see where this goes for public relations. And he is very much, like, We need a plan. What is our end game? They're not aligned at all. There's also, I'm sensing some like, internal strife. There's some weird internal stuff happening, yeah, and I don't know how to get get them aligned, and even get them to like next steps,
and talk to me about what the work would be. You
what they need, like, what I think they need is, I think they need a marketing plan, because they don't even know where to start with that. And I think what I'm hearing she was like, I don't want to be just the face of this, like, I want to be like the CEO, like, oh no. Like, I don't just want to be like a pretty face, like a thought leader. Yeah, she wants to be a thought leader. Yes. She need, they need public relations. They need to start, like, putting themselves out there and their work out there and her out there as a thought leader.
Investment bias, and the question underneath it
9:42
So clearly, there's some type of, like, relationship dynamic that is really playing out in the business, or a business dynamic is playing out in the relationship. Yeah, it could go either or so, let's just step back from like, the time you've invested. So far, because there is this thing called investment bias, which is essentially, we've spent so much time on this already. Like, how could we have to make this work? Let's put the time you spent in a box if you're if you started talking to them today, would you be really excited about them and this opportunity, or and not just the opportunity to do what you do best, which is take people who totally have the potential to be on a national or international stage and get them there, but like this client, would you be very excited about them?
Oh, wow.
First thing came up is you guys gonna be a pain in my ass,
like, You're really good. Would
be, like, a beautiful, easy case study, but the client is a pain because they don't know what they want.
Hand-holding, and proving your value on repeat
10:52
A lot of hand holding. It would be, like, the work is really cool and interesting, but yeah, it sounds like they would need a lot of hand holding, which we've also done with other clients.
Absolutely that con. When you've done that,
it starts to get old. After a little while of repeating yourself and trying to almost, I feel, prove your value to someone who's just not understanding it. So we have one client now, he's okay, but he goes through like he has mood swings. So six months he's like, Good, and then six months he's like, What are you doing? Where is this going? So, yeah, it just feels very exhausting. After a little while,
it's and I'm sure it feels like such a distraction to the work.
Yeah, yeah. And it's not for nothing. They don't pay enough for us to go that much over hours, and we always like double our hours because they need so much hand holding, and sometimes they need extra calls.
And it's I've seen this as well, and it's so much of your time is spent convincing them that the work is valuable and bringing them back, or bringing them off the ledge or whatever, instead of like, actually doing the work. And you don't want to have to convince them all the time that, like, We're doing good stuff. And this is working for the ways that PR works. Okay? So the reason I asked that question is because whatever you decide, I want you to go into it with without investment bias playing out in the sales process and then in the relationship, because looking through the lens of like, right now, we're shutting the door on everything you've done and all the everything you've invested so far. Do you really want this? Because, what because? And I don't, we could talk about like strategies to navigate the relationship or whatever, but what I'm hearing is like, I imagine that this probably isn't going to go away, like the sort of dynamic is going to be part of your work with them.
Yeah, yeah. When I put them up against,
lights up every time we talk to them like they're just so this Midwestern company, like, they're just like, pumped, and they get the value of what we do, like, immediately and like, I feel like this is going to be an uphill battle, and that does not excite me.
Me, yeah, yeah.
What a day-one dynamic tells you
13:28
She said it, you know what? It's okay to say it, like it's okay to acknowledge it, even though I'm sure the money would be great, and I'm sure the result would be great, and you could do great work. But there's a whole other part of the work, which is the client. And I think that we don't ever quite know how our client relationship is going to go once you really get into it, once we're like, six months down the road, or a year down the road or whatever, because people can reveal themselves, or dynamics can reveal themselves, like the dynamic is also like, right here, front and center on day one. Yeah, we can't be surprised if it becomes a total nightmare down the road.
Yeah. Spidey senses are already going off.
Yeah. I feel like a few months ago when we spoke to them, they weren't like that, and now, so there must have been something that happened.
They Yeah, they brought in this company. They are separate entities, but they are operating as one brand, and it's very uncomfortable for
if I was just working with I think we'd be fine, but complicates the shit out of everything,
You set the terms, and you frame them as their benefit
14:34
okay, that opens up something. What would make this a workable relationship for you guys, what would have to be in place so that you'd feel you could do great work and do it in a way that feels good to you,
if we were just working with but he, I'm sensing that he is the her strength. Do I cancel this call? Do I just hear them out and then i. To sit on it. And so
I think that you clearly, you're, you want to approach this in a really thoughtful way, and you are. And before I even go, there a couple things to just remember. Is you set the terms of your own business. You set the terms. And so you can say, all right, based on what I've heard, or even the two of you after this call, can sketch out based on what we're seeing. Here's how what would be. Here's what would we would need to make this relationship really work. Yeah, and it's not just for us. Here's what we would need to do the best work for you guys and get the best results for you. We always position it in terms of benefit the client, because they don't care whether it's a good relationship for you. So number one, you set the terms because you're the boss of your business. Number two, position it in terms of benefit them, and just be open and transparent like listen, we've been thinking about our conversation we we've been putting our heads together about how we can make this work. And what I'm sensing is that there is, how do we say this delicately,
a disconnect.
Yeah, there may be a disconnect in how you want to move forward with this, or the where you see this playing or the value, or even the company's imperatives. And if we are going to make this work, and we do the best work for you, here's what we recommend, and you give that to them so that you they can always say yes, we're willing to work within that. They can say no, that doesn't work for us. They but at least you've given them Yeah. You said it out there. You said, here's what we're seeing and here's how we can make this work, right? You're not saying your relationship is totally messed up. We can't work with you. You're trying to make it work for them, right?
Yeah, I need them to be on the same page before they come to us, because I don't want to play referee, right?
"There's a decision to make before this one"
17:09
You can even say that I was on a conversation. I had a conversation the other day with a woman who wants to work with me. She also wants to build her business, and she also is, like, evaluating this job that she was offered, which is, like, a really great job. And in the course of the conversation, I was like, sounds like, you're there's a decision to make first, right? Like, make working with me or not? That's the second decision. Yeah, you guys need to figure out, or you need to figure out if you're gonna take this job or not. Yeah, because if you work with me. I want you to be really wholeheartedly into this. You can't span two things. So yeah, see what's a version of that for you. It sounds like you, because you can even say it sounds like you guys aren't even ready to work with us. Yeah, do you think they are?
I think he is not there yet. I think he wants a three year plan. She's like, I don't make decisions like that. I just like, keep moving forward. Whereas he's gonna need a plan, yeah? Because what
you're talking about isn't just like, relationship dynamics, ooh, completely different
views of worlds, yes,
and ways of working. Yeah. I think you could also make the case A, that's not how PR works. And be a three year plan. Could you imagine a three year plan that was written in like, January 2020? No, I think, yeah. It's just a different way of thinking. But what he's saying is, like, we need to know where this is going, Yeah, and it's, if you're, if your partner is, I'm just going to go with the flow or go based on my intuition, that's really hard, but again, that's not a problem for you guys to solve. No. And so you know, back to the conversation, or what you guys talk about after this sounds like there's a lot that needs to be worked out before we even work together. Yeah. So you're essentially taking it off the table, in a way, but even if it's not like I am taking this off the table, I think a conversation like that really builds trust, yeah? Because obviously you're not just going to take their money and watch them argue and get anything done, yeah?
I think that's and that needs to be a conversation with them on our next call, because we're have a call with them next week,
I can tell you thinking, what's on your
Why they talked for fifty minutes and called it a great presentation
19:25
mind right now, my thought is, do I go into this conversation? So we've been using your sales conversation, which has really transformed the way. We literally got off a call yesterday, and they're like, that was a great presentation. We talked for 10 minutes. They talked for 50 minutes, great presentation.
Present anything, but it's so true like
it's that's why I said at the beginning of the Edit training that you watch, just like when people do more of the talking, they leave any conversation feeling like it was a great conversation. Wild.
I. Yeah, so we've been using that so it's and they love talking, so this is great, like we're great at listening and active listening. It just your approach puts a framework around it for us. So I guess my question is, do we go through that and then just hear what they have to say and then shift the conversation to like we've been thinking of, like just hearing this conversation, this is what, maybe I just need to stay open and not have go into this. I don't
know there's that still be open, yep. Have this in this approach that we've been talking about. Have it in your back pocket. And if it feels like, well, you know, why did we go through all this? If you were going to say that, I still think that, I think you can say we we've been thinking about this since our last conversation, and we just wanted to hear a little bit more about where you guys are right now. Yeah, I think that gives the discovery that you're going to be doing a reason for being if at the end, you make this turn and you're like, Okay, guys, let's just talk about what's really what might be going on here. Okay, does that feel comfortable? Yeah, yeah.
Because they are supposed to be having a the reason why we have a two week delay between their hot seat and their discovery is they are having like, an internal, like leadership discussion. So maybe they will come out of that with some direction, is my
hope. Yeah. And
if not, then I need Yeah. I need to pull that like card out of my backpack and just be like,
yeah, what we discussed
Trust yourself in the moment, and don't map the whole game
21:29
totally, totally, and I just trust yourself to make that call in the moment. Yep, don't have the, don't have the game all mapped out, or the all the plays in the game, or whatever. So what's your next step?
I think we just need to go into that discovery with what you said, like putting the investment bias in a box and then going into it with being open, but then also at the same time, like having a like, something in my back pocket to be like, Okay, if my spidey senses are going off, it's probably not a good fit right now,
My take: your client has a client
22:06
maybe sitting down the two of you, yeah, how do we want this to look Yep, what's our what's on our wish list, and then keeping that with you, because remember, you're the boss. You can craft this how you want it. There's so much goodness in this conversation and in this sales process with that particular client. And there are so many ways we could take this conversation, but there are two things I want to just sort of pull out so that you can apply them to your business. The first is that what's going on between these two partners in this business is a great illustration of one of the foundational principles of our selling methodology, which is that your client has a client. I talked about this back in episode 64 but it's so fundamental that it really bears repeating here. Your client has a client. It's one of our 12 principles of navigating the jungle, how we understand what's going on in the client side so that you can actually help your clients sell you in, or, as we say, help clients sell you in. Say yes and bring you on. Your client has a client means that when you're selling B to B, your main contact always has somebody else that they need to sell you into, someone else that they need to get buy in from even if you're talking to the CEO or the main decision maker. You know, I talk to a lot of women who are like, I'm selling the CEO, or the CEO is my client, or I'm already talking to the decision maker. But even the CEO or the decision maker has a client. Let's just take the CEO, for example. Their clients are the rest of the management team, the board, the employees, just to name a few. So in this episode, my clients were talking to the decision makers, but each one of them had a client, and the client was the other partner in the business, and each one needed to get the other's buy in that this was the right problem to solve, and this was the right way to solve it. So remember that in your sales process with your clients, your client has a client, when you remember that, it'll allow you to be more compassionate towards your clients, more compassionate towards your main contact, more understanding about what might be going on behind the scenes, maybe what's causing delays, and you can help your client, help their client get bought in. And the second thing I want to leave you with is this idea of investment bias, or it's also called commitment bias. Investment bias says that the more time you've already invested in something, the more likely you are to want to stick with it. Investment bias is like why people sit at slot machines for hours on end, or they keep gambling even when they've lost, because at some point something has to hit. Investment bias is one reason why people stay in not great relationships, and it also plays out in the sales process, in that the longer. We've spent in a sales process with a client, we're more likely to want to stick with it, because we feel like at some point something has to work out with this client. But it can also lead us to make some decisions that aren't in our best interest. It can lead us to invest too much in the sales process, like in this case, my clients did free work to get the client into a national publication even before the contract was signed, it can lead us to agree to terms that aren't in our favor. And more so I think it's important to talk about here, because if you're in a sales process with a client where it's not going great and there are some red flags, you just have to be aware of your own investment bias and try to remove that investment bias from the equation. Because when you can do that, you can make a more rational decision about whether this is really a good client for you. Because, as one of my clients says, how it starts is how it goes. How it starts in the sales process, is how it's going to go in the client relationship. Because, listen, clients that want to work with us are awesome. Because, of course, clients come with money that we can use to support our businesses and support our lives. But not all money is the same, and some money is expensive. So be sure you're choosing the clients that are right for you, not just because they want to pay you, but because you feel really good about working with them.
The two systems
26:31
Hey, everything we're talking about in this episode is part of the system. Women like you are learning in the academy. In the Academy, we help women consultants install the two systems every B to B consultant needs a marketing system to consistently attract the right clients and a sales system to lead a sales process to a yes and get paid more for every contract. So even if you've only gotten clients through referrals or word of mouth in the academy, you'll learn how to attract and sign clients outside your network, how to lead a sales process with confidence and how to get paid for your value, not your time, and there's no cold calling or cold emailing involved, no changing your services or making a course, and you won't use any pushy sales tactics. That's just not our vibe. So if you like what you've heard here, the academy may be your right next step to learn how you can get these two systems in your consulting business and make progress faster and with fewer roadblocks. Head to smart gets paid.com/academy and apply and we can chat about next steps. All right. See you over there. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Two ways I can help you
When you're ready to break through to the next revenue level in your consulting business, here are two ways I can help you.
1Join The Academy
For women consultants who've been in business 2+ years and are making $120k+. Build the two systems every consulting business needs to get more of the right clients, get paid more, and build a sustainable business:
- A marketing system to bring the right clients to you and fill your pipeline
- A sales system to help clients say yes and get you paid more
If you're ready to make your business and revenue more stable, secure, and sustainable, visit the Academy page to learn more and apply.
2Get Roadmap to Clients
Map out a simple sales process for your consulting business in less than an hour. Take potential clients smoothly from first contact to a signed proposal, so you can stop reinventing the wheel with every opportunity.
Get the free video course.
